Jan
2
So, it has come. Many have been awaiting it, to rejoice, a few, thought, it shall never come. Fewer never bothered. However, it is going to affect them all.
I am speaking about the new education bill proposed. The first remark to it is, it is not a novel idea, in no way it is. It is the result of all the small ideas, the small steps taken. Now, with one sweep, it will be established, no one will oppose, no one will see what’s going wrong, no one will say anything against, and no one will hear about the wrong.
What is the name of this idea?
-
“Free and compulsory education for children”
Yes, free, and compulsory. Through the 86th amendment, the children got the right. The children are human beings, from age 6-14.
If we dissect this idea a bit, we shall see that through this right, we are also introducing compulsory education. What does that mean? If you do not want to study, you shall be forced to study. You shall be educated, with or without your consent. You are not grown up enough to give consent. Who decides? The state, of course.
-
Now, the child, who worked hard in the tea shop shall go to school, his standard of living shall improve. The dream that he had, to work and open his own shop after a few years shall be erased. It is not right to have such dream for him. All men must have high ambitions. The child who worked, because there was nobody earning in his home, shall go to school. We must feel for those poor children. They work when ours go to school. They are earning, when ours are learning. What shall happen to his family? Who shall feed him? That shall be dealt when we bring a new law, making food a basic human right.
Now, when this bill is passed, all our children shall be educated. All shall be able to solve algebra, when they are lying hungry, because he does not have any money to buy food. He shall accept this philosophically, as he is educated now. Education is a virtue, it required sacrifices. He has sacrificed. He has been made to sacrifice.
There shall be a vast number of children going to school. Are there enough schools for these children? Oh yes, we have. We shall make the privet ones share the burden. Education is not a commodity. It must not be sold. It is a virtue. It must be given free. Then how shall the private schools exist? Well, it shall take money from the wealthy children. Why? Because they can afford to buy it, so they MUST buy it. Nevertheless, does not this kid have a right to free education? Well, he may come to government ones.
The schools shall not choose the student. They shall not screen. Some people are good students because of their genetic make-up, they have no right to be given preference. No body has any right to discriminate. Those who are not good enough shall have everything equal to the good ones.
“THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE WORLD”
There shall be no exams. Nobody has the right to decide whether one has learned or not. Nobody has the right to award the working, the studious. The studious has no right to celebrate his victory. He shall not be given a battle to have a victory. All shall be equal.
When they will come out of school, all will be equal, the good brought to the label of the inferior, through years where every single occasion when he proved to be better than others were erased. The good shall come out not knowing he is good. Thus, there shall not be anybody who is better than the rest. This is equality.
It has been six years since the 86th amendment was made. Why haven’t it been passed? Because, the bill did not mention the funds required, or was very vague about it. Now it is clear, it requires minimum of Rs 3, 21,196 crore to a maximum Rs 4,36,458.5 crore over six years. Not a small price to pay, but, when there are so many good things about to happen, the price shall be paid. By whom? Those who would not be benefited by it. Now, we should not oppose it. We are not.
Through out ages, mediocre have ate out of the hand of the creator. Now, India seems to feel that it can do away with creators’ altogether.
Why this idea is being criticized has been discussed in this site. The reader is being requested here to think, why the government never privatizes health and education.
33 Responses to “Irrational Equality: The Mediocre shall Inherit the World”
Leave a Reply
Mayuresh Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:15 amSome people are good students because of there genetic make-up
,,,,,,,,,,,
there???their???
This is a controversial issue of all times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheritance_of_intelligence
Also check
http://www.unipune.ernet.in/doc/vc_Jadhav.html and
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Teach_India_From_peon_to_V-C/articleshow/3203879.cms
Narendra Jadhav might be an outcome of the fact that “Maharashtra is socially developed than any other state in India.”
Class conflict is historical. It is popularly said that everything is included in Mahabharata; Eklavya, Ashwatthama,…, Karna.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Meritocratic_states
What is your saying about reservations?
When they will come out of school, all will be equal
,,,,,,,,,,,
Are they going to dissolve grade system?
Anyways primary education does not tell anybody’s utility value or life success. It is the professional education that determines it.
Rs 3, 21,196 crore to a maximum Rs 4, 36,458.5 crore. the price shall be paid. By whom? Those who would not be benefited by it.
,,,,,,,,,,,
This is questionable for sure.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 3rd, 2009 at 2:46 amThis is a controversial issue of all times.
Actually there is no controversy over it. The writer is not talking about IQ, the writer is talking about a individuals ability regarding a particular stream of life.
Some are borne athlete, their genetic body helps them better, some gets other set of specialties genetically. There is no controversy regarding it.
Yet you could create any controversy anywhere. How do you think IQ is related with governmental education system?
Try to get a hold about dyslexic students too, many says dyslexia is a hereditary problem, it may not be too. Indian education system is certainly not the issue of IQ. furthermore, If a person is intelligent, he is intelligent.
About reservation, it is anti-human. it is discrimination and racial.
Anyways, there’s alot matter on this site about reservation.
You may get a look here
India in search of freedom equality and Justice
Hypocrisy of Anti-reservation activists
Current problem in India
and there are many other articles related to reservation or any other sort of discrimination on behalf of Sex/class/creed/color/religion/caste or any other general basis.
But in exams and education, the issue is not class or caste, the issue is in a current applied situation who is doing better. Furthermore, it is not about meritocracy which you are trying to color here. No body is claiming that a person with Higher degree is possessing a greater IQ.
Ambani had no degree. (D.B Ambani).
“Maharashtra is socially developed than any other state in India.”
The statement sounds hollow specially in the light of the case of 2007 where a science school teacher of Thane, Maharashtra killed his 20 year old daughter just because some aghori sadhu had suggested him that if he sacrifices his daughter, he may get a son. So in desiring of becoming a father of a son, he killed his 20 years old daughter. Is this Socially developed Maharstra?
No, we cannot generalize. its ridiculous to say that maharastra is socially upward or backward.
Rest the author will answer.
By the way you have no point is supporting the recent education bill.
Even if no one will be failed till 9th standard, what will happen in 10th board exam?
Privatization of education system will TOTALLY elliminate the MERITOCRACY of indian education system. In fact it will eliminate the sucking ill central board system so what meritocracy than?
And why did not you read the previous post Inefficiency of indian Education System
it deals with all your rhetorical questions about meritocracy and IQ etc.
Fisherman Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 11:23 am@Mr Mayuresh
The line can be interpreted as you want to. It does not speak about inherited IQ, rather it says that some people are better than others at doing things, by make up. Your links do not contradict this.
Genetic make up is inherited ofcourse, but, not necessarily translated. And then again, some may be retarded by make up. It is not inheritance I am speaking about. Rather, the chance assembly of factors which shall contribute to better qualities is the concern. Hope ypu understand how the word make up is used here. And sorry for the typo.
About reservation, I felt that, the mentally challanged should have a reservation as well, for they do not deserve to be left out of IIMs or IITs.
If primery education does not have any utility value, than why should this large sum of money be diverted to it, when investment in market economy has proven utility value? The benefits of tax payers is questionable for sure, when you are the one defining what benefit is. In Mahabharata, the conflict was between classes, and that is aristocracy. Now, when the schools are not allowed to screen the future students, is it comparable to that? I do not think so.
Lastly, if they are not doing away with grades, why are they doing away with exams? What does that mean? Students do not deserve to fail?
Mayuresh Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 7:41 pmThe line can be interpreted as you want to. It does not speak about inherited IQ, rather it says that some people are better than others at doing things, by make up.
=========
Initially you used “Some people are good students because of their genetic make-up”…..the word students indicates the abilities that a student must have, and not athletics etc.(as said by diva)
Genetic make up is inherited of course, but, not necessarily translated.
=========
The word inherited means “derived from predecessor”, derivation is of course not same as translation.
If primery education does not have any utility value, than why should this large sum of money be diverted to it, when investment in market economy has proven utility value?
==========
Is it possible to get higher education without primary education? Almost everybody’s life till the age of 21 and after 58/60 has no utility value. I think that things should not be calculated like that.
Poverty :: “The denial of opportunities to lead a long, healthy, creative life and to enjoy a descent standard of living, freedom, dignity, self-respect and the respect of others”
I mention here also that “Capitalism is intellectual and industrial growth based on inequality leading towards sovereign state. It is the only system that has generated wealth. Thus can reduce poverty.”
Also, What should a child do till the age of 14 without violating laws regarding child labour? Or you think that these laws are useless?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor
Regarding “large sum of money” I do not really know what percentage it is and all. But it is good to reduce %age of money in war and put it in education.
The dream that he had, to work and open his own shop after a few years shall be erased.
==========
I am doubtful whether a human child which has not got primary education (language abilities and all) will be able to dream or not.
In Mahabharata, the conflict was between classes, and that is aristocracy. Now, when the schools are not allowed to screen the future students, is it comparable to that? I do not think so.
Lastly, if they are not doing away with grades, why are they doing away with exams? What does that mean? Students do not deserve to fail?
==========
We really have to consult an expert in pedagogy for that. But I think that nobody should be kept away from basic learning. Primary education is important for child’s overall developement. Failure in one basic ability does not mean that child will not be able to grasp another basic ability.
e.g. one should not get restricted from getting a driving licence if he cannot walk. Yes, these people can ride bikes specially made for them. It is useful for them. There might be plenty of examples like that.
Fisherman Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 9:02 pm@Mr Mayuresh
See, ‘doing things’ is a general term, so I do not think I need to clarify that. A man might be good at mathematics, by make up. Its an ability of the brain, and it can be modified by exposure.
So, some people may translate their inherited make up, and they are better than others, anyways, that does not concern me.
It is impossible to get higher education without primery education, but the latter does not warrant the first, so, it is no use providing mass primery education, for free. For free is the word you miss, and for free is the topic. At whose cost shall they be given higher education?
Your example regarding this is useless, as they are not liabilities of the society, rather, they depend on their family. And a man aged 60 may have earned enough to sustain himself after that age, and him doing so helps economy because he still has transactions in market.
The child labour laws are ridiculous, they are feel good policies which does not address the problem. A child may or may not work, and his decision is of the ultimate importance here. And having such laws does not prevent a child working, or improve the situation where he has to work.
“But it is good to reduce %age of money in war and put it in education.”
Is it the only option? Are their only two fields where investment can occur?
I do not think that an uneducated mind has no dreams, and I do not think what makes you say that. Infact, I have seen uneducated people living happy lives. And also, I think, education is an improvement devised by human. Were they without dream before its arrival?
You think no body shoul be kept away from basic learning. I think the same. Education is a blessing, which everyone must have access. But, the question is, at whose cost, and why? And what of me if I do not want to invest on it?
And, there may be overall developement without forced education. Education only codifies what man learns through life. It is not some spell that is only found in school books.
Lastly, dtry to understand this. Nobody is debating whether education is useful or not. whether free education is useful is the contention. And there is a series of articles here, which talks about it. Have you gone through them all? Your points does not actually belong to this topic, there are other posts specifically speaking about what you are addressing
RawThinkTank Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 9:22 pmChildren should not be allowed to work , only then the POOR parents will stop reproducing them for want of free slaves.
Dsylexic Says:
January 4th, 2009 at 10:42 pmrawthinktank -so poor children are better off starving or prostituting?. you are just a victim of the whiteman’s thinly disguised agenda of eliminating the brown and black man -and what better way to target them than the poor amongst them.
let every person decide if they want children and how they are going to bring them up. you can decide to have no children or give away yours to adoption.you have no right to dictate what others do.children should not only be allowed to work, they should be encouraged to work by 12-13. there are too many unproductive people who are still getting brainwashed at universities till the age of 27 studying stuff like marcoeconomics.this whole business of preventing children from working is a dastardly coward act of misplaced bleeding hearts
RawThinkTank Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 8:09 amDsylexic
So according to u its ok for poor dad to make his daughter prostitute or slave for his drinks, tobacco and nonveg food etc ?
Forget that , but what about the population ?
Why do well doing educated people hav less children ?
GP Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 11:54 am@Fisherman
Coz there is no need of privatising them. If ur complaining about quality of education/services in govt. schools/hospitals then go for private school/hospitals who can provide quality with extra cost.I don’t expect poor ppl to afford this choice and certainly we do have them in bulk in india so they are welcome in govt. funded schools/hospitals. The choice is urs. Your post sounds confusing so plz pardon me if I don’t understand it very well but to answer ur view on grading system - I wud say the proposal of applying grading system has helped curbing suicide rates and disappointments of many children who couldn’t got into top 10 or top 50 due to difference of mere points in their aggregate percentile. Also, it helped to reduce sense of jealousy and hatred in the minds of mediocre students towards the bright ones.
Personally – I don’t like the grading system which is not at all helping employers/college professors in distinguishing ppl( in terms of knowledge) in recruitments/admissions so definitely we need strigent evaluation criteria which shud be overall aggregate marks than grades.
@Unpretentious
==> I think it will just widen the gap between ppl who can afford to pay for it for the sake of quality and those who can’t bcoz of lack of it(read – money) but thats the way it shud be unless govt. is hapless in improving standards and quality of teaching methods and apply more stringent evaluation/assessment ..after all its not ideal world where everything is perfect.
About Meritocracy – I don’t think it will be compromised as long as private bodies maintain high standards in teaching staff, methods of imparting knowledge and of course evaluation criteria.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 12:16 pm@ RawThinkTank
Why do well doing educated people hav less children ?
And who taught you that population is a problem? Government? Education? How difficult it is for a woman or a man to understand by their ownself that they will face problems if they have more children?
Birth rate is decreasing speedily because now Birth control pills and condoms and other specifics are available easily. And thanks to privatization of TV channels and electronics items, TV’s are available in even the poorest of the villages so that the messages of good health and importance of birth controls can be expressed explained freely by the help of the sponsorships from private products companies.
Education has nothing to do with it.
With 100% education in UK, girls gets pregnant there and such cases of pregnancies and than abortions are alarmingly high there. it explains that education has nothing to do with population.
Even though birth rate is decreased heavily, population is still increasing. Why?
Because death rates are also declinging by great margins now. People generally dont die in mass numbers with the spread of malaria chickenpox etc other common diseases. Thanks to medical facilities and vaccination.
@GP
One or two stray incidences does not make Maharashtra socially underdeveloped.
Every single day in india 46 farmers commit suicide. 23 of such cases are generally reported in vidharbha alone. and incidently Vidharbha is major region of Maharastra .
its not one or two incidences in an year, its above 20 incidences every DAY.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 12:20 pmmore than that, kerala is the state with maximum literacy rate, such suicidal cases happens in high numbers in kerela too. and it is increasing in kerela.
I have provided report on it in comment section of other post.
Myth of Complete education.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 1:44 pmEducation should be compulsory, but monetary incentive should be provided to those childrens or their parents who cant afford it because of poverty. Education should be such that it enhances the skill rather than useless knowledge which ofcourse should be choice of the student.
@ unpretentious diva. its quiet evident that lack of education could be associated with population. Take into account the muslim community in india which has lowest literacy rates and highest birth rates. There might be high rate of pregnancies in UK but they dont lead to births.
Population may not be a problem to the nation exact sensenation but it is for the family if they are poor (childrens dont get better nutrition / education in bigger families). and the families are what makes a nation so it affects the nation indirectly
regarding the kerala’s / maharashtra suicide rates. literacy has nothing to do with it. as far as i would guess places with illiteracy have lesser suicide rates if one can take out the economic factor.
maharashtra is no better socially developed than any other states,
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 2:23 pm@ Maya
Education should be compulsory,
Well many things should be free and compulsory. the problem is who will pay, and should government loot people if they don’t want to pay?
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 2:45 pmwe/governmnet would pay. Why do we need to think it as an expense. After all the whole money that would be injected is going into the market, which means it comes back to us.
suppose. 100 rs is expense by the government per student . 50rs we give to the student as monetary benefit to take education, remaining goes into school exp and teacher. School admin / teacher and place where the student spends 50rs generate employment and demand. All this things increases the market which ultimately is benefitial to every one.
when the money is employed in the market, nobody pays everyone gains. money remains in the system.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 3:29 pmLet me discuss how and why Anglo-Saxon education became important for India, and more than that what consequences it might have?
Indian government through its Literacy mission tends to spread literacy in India, and for some reason or other people do believe that it is good for India. Yet what people denies is, it is extremely improbable and Government keeps pushing this impractical idea only to loot Honest law abiding citizen’s money robbed through compulsory education system. Well, we have discussed it earlier, but here is the discussion about its effects.
By making Indian public day-dream about complete education, and giving all irrational logic that education will help poor to develop, Government actually aborts any chance of poor to get a higher education.
Indian education system works on the principle of exclusion, divide and rule. While majority of Indians get primary education/literacy in local languages, government supports English at higher education level, also major government investment (robbed tax from citizens) goes to higher education system. Each AIIMS doc costs Rs 1.7cr
This exclusion system is not new; Indians have faced it earlier in history too.
As for example, in the Nizam of Hyderabad (which used to include major portion of Andhra Pradesh and a vast portion of Maharashtra) Telgu and Marathi were considered barbarian languages, and Urdu was predominantly supported by the Nizam. Thus, anyone not accomplished in Urdu was automatically excluded from the system of governance, administration and interaction with public services and utilities.
Same is the case in modern India, while Indian government supports English for higher education system, and thus it excludes or restricts 80% of Indians from having any chance of higher education, development and access to opportunities.
Now one may say that, investing in Higher education is necessary. Well yes it is, but does the investment worth it, is it paying back?
Almost 200,000 highly educated people leaves India and we call it the problem of brain drain. That is, the subsidized education system which is assumed to help and educate poor, for which Indian citizen are forced to pay taxes, goes to make highly educated students who leaves India to outer world. On the other hand, there are slightest possibilities that some of the poor will ever get any benefit from such education system.
So why do Indian government persist on English language? They say English is the business language of the world. Well, US are a declining economy. China is increasing faster. French and Spanish speaking belt of business is also gaining strength. So what if tomorrow Mandarin Chinese becomes major business language, or Spanish or French, will Indians loose all their efforts in learning English?
Muslims are less at official positions because Muslims were used to Urdu, and with emergence of English as Indian official language and medium of higher education, they lost their opportunities. Will it happen again with all of Indians if tomorrow English looses to be the major language of Business world?
So why the government keep up with English medium for higher studies?
Because all the high and mighty, finally want their children to ‘escape to the West’, with a good education from India – at the cost of India’s poor. This vested interest makes this policy go around.
Now maya, I would like you to read previous articles before commenting on the subject, it would save alot of time.
Read this first. Myth of Complete Education.
Then read this Inefficiency of Indian Education System.
Then read this Government is against Educating poor.
After reading those discussions, if you get some point to debate over, please comment here you are cordially invited
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 4:11 pmThere is no looting here as i said, those who are well off can share some part of their income considering it a charity, 2-3 % is not goin to make anyone poorer and at the end its only they or their offsprings that is going to be benefited.
Its completely a practical idea remember nothing happens in a day it takes its time, i very well agree that the system is slow and filled with leniency but it will show its effect in long run and with development the system will be effecient.
“By making Indian public day-dream about complete education, and giving all irrational logic that education will help poor to develop, Government actually aborts any chance of poor to get a higher education.”
more refernce on above needed.
Whats wrong in supporting the english language, i am of the view that english should be made national language instead of hindi. And when we are discussing in english its not right to talk against it. English is not only business language its a global language, english is needed to interact, to communicate with the world. Prohibiting english is like making the people handicapped. Ask any native language educated person he will say not learning english was his biggest drawback. Our upperhand at the IT industry is because of the same. There is nothing wrong with english, english shud be made compulsory, thats what narendra modi did recently in gujarat to quote him he said ” i know what the problems i face due to my lack of knowledge in english and i dont want the same to happen with any one else”.
Days of the nawabs are not valid in this discussion, things have changed since then. its not a monarcy now.
The cost of education in native and english language would cost same. As india has dozens of language the use of a common language of instruction is much better. suppose a person from kerala educated in malayalam can not go to karnataka for a job because he knows no kannad, is that what you are supporting. A common language is always better in terms of education. Primary education has been kept in native language so that it doesnt become too hard for the young students to learn.
brain drain: we are very eager to quote about brain drain. What about the remitances that they send back. India is largest receiver of remitances in the world. It is in noway a loss making proposition. The annual fee at aims for a student is some 500rs and the cost is 1 crore i agree on that. But in that heap of students there i am sure nobody has that kind of money if not for the government. Is it wrong to support a talented person, do u mean that a poor person should never become an engineer or doctor, u mean he should rot away working as a construction work with all this talent. you need to rethink, complete capitalism is not possible yet, not yet in india.
Urdu has gone because there is no use of urdu, nobody needs urdu, there are not enuf speakers. It gone in the same way as sanskrit has gone. But when a language goes it gives its words to other languages. sanskrit and urdu has given its words to hindi. and both the languages are there in hindi.
No other language will take place of English, speakers of french or spanish are too less. English has already reached all parts of the globe, and it cant be removed from there. As for the mandarins the speakers of that language are all located at one place, they can very well interact with each other, but if they want to communicate in the globalised world, they have to speak in english.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 4:13 pm@ maya
Until you wont read those posts, your comments won’t be accepted.
please put up some effort in understanding the reality rather than keep throwing up of your emotional drive.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 4:45 pm@Pretentious diva
is it me who is being emotional or is it you who seems to be frustuated of paying income tax. No where in my previous comment did i say anything that is offtopic or which you term to be emotional. i countered all your point with completely valid reasoning. i have gone thru those post and still my earlier comment is the same the links that you gave me it has the same thing that you said here on which i tried to differ. I would anyway be giving my view on those posts too.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 4:55 pm@Maya
There is no looting here as i said, those who are well off can share some part of their income considering it a charity, 2-3 %
Thats emotional irrational and False.
Charity cannot be FORCED. Let the person decide if he want to give charity or not.
If he do not want, YOU have No right to loot him.
I wonder how can you even dream of demanding hafta/mahina like a goon of Indian films?
Compulsory taxes are nothing but similar loot.
Now since you want to pretend thinking that this loot is not loot but chairty, and if someone DO not want to charity than he must be placed in jails and called a tax-theif, than you are highly pretentious.
Anyways, it was nice talking you and listening your emotional drives!
You can keep commenting whatever you wish, you won’t get an answer back, because your emotional drives which make you force chairty on people doesn’t deserve answer.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 5:37 pmwhat about the other points that i made, i assume u are not capable to answer them. I have to go on a diff way to make u understand this
then tell me this.
When the government collects taxes, what does it do?
1. Spends on defence
who is the beneficiary when the government buy defence equipt.
A. business man, the employees of defence firms, their family and indirectly many other people.
2. On providing education.
A. Business men. why? more books- (paper industry), more schools (construction), more educated people ( whole industry).
3. on infrastructure, power, security.
A. Business men.
Every thing the government does comes back to the business mess from there it again reaches till the lowest strata of society.
if you dont understand economics. then dont make such posts.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 6:12 pmWhen the government collects taxes, what does it do?
It wastes it. causes corruption and misadventures like wars. Indira Gandhi was the biggest misadventurist. You know it all.
1. Spends on defence
who is the beneficiary when the government buy defence equipt.
A. business man, the employees of defence firms, their family and indirectly many other people.
If government keeps its head away from security system and let the citizens invest directly, Not only defence system will become efficient (no terrorism, no rapes and if theres any crime, proper and faster judgements) but also wastage will be reduced to minimal. Let citizens pay for it. Stop government bureaucrats and politicians to act like PIMP as if security and justice is not individual’s right but a prostitute.
2. On providing education.
A. Business men. why? more books- (paper industry), more schools (construction), more educated people ( whole industry).
If government stops Interfering in education system, not only poor will get full education at least prices and most efficient ways, but business will also improve government is the wastage PIMPING education for the ruling class, bureucrats, corrupt corporates, crony capitalists, politicians.
3. on infrastructure, power, security.
A. Business men.
Infrastructure , power security all are economic sectors. Government need top keep away from economic sector to provide competition, choices and efficiency alongwith professionalism. Government is wastage PIMPING on development and progress.
Every thing the government does comes back to the business mess from there it again reaches till the lowest strata of society.
if you dont understand economics. then dont make such posts.
May time provide you some sense. I am an Economist.
renegade_division Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 6:30 pm@GP
Sure we don’t mind doing that. But can we have the refund of the money which was forced from us in terms of revenues, duties, and taxes to fund these public schools and hospitals?
Oh wait you want me to pay for the education of poor people, and spend less on my own, what morale are you really holding for that?
@Maya
Yepp then that means world’s third largest country in terms population should be one of the world’s poorest countries??
Why is it that America, world’s third largest country in terms of population is way richer than any other country with that much size and population?
Clearly your theory about population seems to be faulty. Yes I do have people telling me that India has more density of population, than America, well America has a population density of 31 people per sq km and here are the list of countries with population density between 20-40 per sq km.(if you think there is a relationship between population density and prosperity, which is nothing but a correlated propaganda fed by Indian govt)
Colombia, Yeman, South Africa, Latvia, Cameroon, Zimbabwe, USA, Estonia, Liberia, Venezuela, Mozambique, Congo Somalia, Brazil.
Tell me which one of these countries are anywhere near in terms of prosperity to USA??
Brazil has lesser population density than USA, almost comparable Area, still its nowhere near USA in population density.
I am glad that you a new visitor to our site because I wanna welcome you to a world where we aim to untangle every propaganda, every brainwashing which has been done by the society. And by that we don’t mean stupid conspiracy theories, but highly rational stuff.
Take for example isn’t it very convenient for the govt to blame the people for every problem? People (of India) get blamed for not working hard, or for being too corrupt, or reproducing too much. Govt system has no problems its just that the people in those places are corrupt.
To us(Libertarians), wondering on how to remove corruption from Govt offices is like wondering how to avoid scratches while getting raped.
Can there be a benevolent rapist? Well then how can there be a honest politicians? The job of being a govt leader means you need to seize honestly earned property from other people, make people do stuff for the sake of “greater good”, the definition of “greater good” totally depends upon the propaganda they can spawn.
renegade_division Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 6:46 pm@Maya
Paying the teachers and furniture isn’t really “the market”.
Market means a system of individuals performing voluntary transactions with each other. You can’t define a need such as education, fulfill it forcefully and then claim to help the Market.
Take for example lets say I don’t wanna study? I mean does everyone have to study? We do brainwash every kid to study, but lets say I feel through the cracks, I just wanna sit on my dad’s shop until I am 18 and then I wanna start my own business, why should my dad keep on paying for an educational system which we are never going to use??
Secondly, what about expenses on me, I want investment Capital for my job(the job of being a businessman), but instead of that my dad keeps on paying taxes and duties on infinite items for years to pay for the education of other kids? The truth is you don’t really care what a shopkeeper’s kid wants to do. Democracy is just a matter of being a part of the right group. You are a part of the Educated people, so you want “ALL THE POSSIBLE MONEY TO BE SPENT ON EDUCATION”.
There must be a million+ individuals in India who are shopkeepers who never use anything beyond basic education for their job. So my question is you took massive taxes from them, so technically you took away a large part of their education from them. Can you really feel for the Business community?
@Maya Said:
That’s totally not true on so many counts, suffers from numerous economics fallacies, and they have been refuted numerous times.
Because according to this logic, if I tax 100% to the people, and redistribute it among people, they will spend it in the Market, it will totally give us massive prosperity boost.
renegade_division Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 7:01 pm@Maya said:
Taxes aren’t 2-3% first of all(or please tell me where do you live I gotta move in there). Taxes are 25-45% in India.
You work till April-May only for other people, only then you start to earn your for yourself.
Anyways buddy the thing is, we have had discussions with people who are New to Libertarianism, and its going to take a long long discussion, and they are mostly the same arguments over and over and over. This is the precise reason why we created this site.
I would suggest to hang on to the site a bit, subscribe to it, and read a few articles. There are numerous issues you and me disagree upon. We will discuss it on as the topic demands. Currently this discussion here is going HUGE, and it doesn’t seem to be ending any time soon. So why don’t we keep this comment section relevant to the article.
Anyways, do subscribe to the site.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 7:07 pm@ unpretentious
1. And how to you propose would the citizen would be able to invest directly in defence. You would propose that a company should be formed. What the primary function of a company. To generate profit and how would that be generate eventually through the profits made from the citizen. so it comes to the same thing. in such a case the company too works as a pimp. And what if the company exploits the defence equipments. This the most stupidest idea.
2. Ok complete privtisation may reduce the cost on education but what about those who have nothing atall to pay. I am in favour of removing licensing in education but complete privatisation without any government moderation is not possible. There should always be some schools run by government free of cost.
3. So why would a company provide road to the village, so should every one head to the city so that they have better facilities. Y would company provide electrification to the remote villages, no railway or road access to such remote places would be possible, who would provide health services there. Tell me a solutions to it. Could agriculture be possible if u leave it thinking its not profitable. What you are saying may be right in numerical sense but this is a world where there are real situations.
very well, So u are an economist in terms of education, those universities have suceeded in making you an economist but has evidently taking away common sense from you. I dont know what they teach you there but let me tell you economics is about people, and an economy runs on people and not money.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 7:22 pm@renegade_divison
i am wondering at the lack of your understanding some basic things. when i said lack of education can be related to increase in population is a basic finding in India which i am sure you are not aware of. It might not have happend in US. Its very much a fact in India which could be proved statistically. And when i do say so i am not saying its the only relation. there are many factors to be considered.
Government never blames the people, its the people who blame the govt, atleast in our part of the world its like that. People know about the inefficiencies of govt. but they also know the importance of it.
What you are saying is all theories, do u have a practical approach about how the govt. could be avoided in the entirety. its a big system, and its noway possible to completely do away with the govt.
renegade_division Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 7:41 pm@Maya Said:
That is the sad part. The fact that you think govt cannot be avoided. There is no logical basis for such a belief, other than the fact that you never really have thought about it.
Have you ever thought how govt can be removed before you found someone like me talking about it?? Which course in your school education covered “Anarchy”??
I even have had people telling me “we have tried anarchy and it doesn’t work”. The thing is, there is a huge ideological movement out there called Anarcho-Capitalism. There are huge amount of literature available on it(just type it on google for starters).
But I seriously don’t wanna discuss that with you right now, I wanna go into a more ideological issue here. LIBERTY!
The reason why a society with no govt is desirable is because of Liberty. The govt takes away our Liberties and we wanna get rid of that. I am sure you don’t mind giving up those Liberties, but don’t forget Britishers were in India for 200 years, and our Freedom Movement was there only for 90 years.
That means for first 110 years, nobody(other than the kings) really had a problem with Britishers ruling them. I mean imagine if this is sunny day in 1840, and you are called by the District Collector(a Britisher) to deposit the Lagaan(TAX), are you really thinking “Angrezo Bharat Chodo”, or are you just thinking “Damn the production this year wasn’t good enough, how do I convince him to not take the lagaan this year?
In fact the revolution of 1857 wasn’t even about Independence it was a mutiny by the soldiers against their superior officers which was taken in charge by the ex-kings and nawabs.
Its not about our preference to Taxation, or Public or Private Education. Its about Liberty.
Just because the shoe which goes on to my face is of an Indian guy and not a Britisher and even though I have the power to change the person whose shoe its going to be on my face but the shoe can never go away, doesn’t mean anything has changed.
A Britisher spat on your face then, a democratically elected Indian guy does the same thing to you now. Is that really freedom?
Is the power to choose your rapist, really a power of any kind? Is the power to choose your murderer a power of any kind?
Its about Liberty, and Reason!
The discussion between you and me has to be on a more ideological level(and since they spawn really long) Why don’t you make a blog post on your blog, and we will reply you here on our blog. Make a case why you think we don’t need Liberty anymore.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 7:43 pmso how does a child know at a very young age if the wants to study or not. does it mean that you dont know if you are going to get some disease in the future then why do u spend on vaccination.
So that when your dad is paying those taxes for the education of some other child, one day that child will become your customer one day when you have started your business and as he is well educated there are good chances that he would be making some handsome salary which he would use to buy services from your business. Even if the child leaves the education in between he buys those books and pencils that you sell.
Nobody is forcing to take education, its just they are given a choice. They are given a chance that if they have the talent then they can make it. In the same way your father is giving you a chance at your business by saving money for you. The education is the capital of the student, who may use it and be successful or may not be but atleast a chance is provided to prove himself.
as i have referred before too, the taxes are used to develop market and the resources. So if one day any of those shop keepers decide to construct a shopping mall, he would be able to find those educated people required, which had been made possible because of the taxes that he paid.
So you seem to be very well versed with economic theories. If 100% of the money distributed is spent in the market, where does that money goes. It logical to think the money expands the market giving a prosperity boom but because it takes too much time in this process it not evident in short period. As far as i understand the money is like energy, it doesnt get created not gets destory it just gets transfered / transformed to someone else/ something else.
pardon me if i am wrong anywhere, i m just an drop out undergraduate, who didnt very well utilised the tax payers money
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 7:53 pmThe meaning of merit will change
See the meritorious students in current engineering colleges aren’t the one who gets best placements
The employers test their own self, and many a times, the students with just quallifying marks like 60% gets better jobs than the top rankers
the employers gets the freedom to chose what they want
Now consider this if there’s no central board governing all
the private colleges have freedom to chose their own syllabus and techniques and procedures of educating
They will have proper researched system to meet with demands of market plus a proper research to meet demands of consumers that is students and their parents
in absence of central board system, the meaning of merit will change completely, and it will be better with lots of choices for students, and for employers.
There will be schools for sculpturing, drawing, tea-making, home sciences, even for homeservices, baby sitting too and it will be proper profession, making people learn efficiency and profit making. Market decides education.
Indian historical culture supports private education. We are the country which provided first world recognized private universities of Takshila Nalanda. Remember the Takshila which produced Great scholars like Chanakya who alone challenged and defeated the draconic rulers of Nand vansh. So I am not talking of something which is western. I am talking of Indian culture. Gurudakshina . And surely the Voluntary supporters for some/any educational institute may finance for it too freely. Education will become cheaper and easily available for poorest of the society too.
The current examples are the Private Schools run by Arya Samaj. Any of those schools are professional competent and efficient. What are common fees of those schools? In Bhopal it is mere Rs80/- per month. Even a local labour earns rs125/- per day.
maya Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 8:06 pmrenegrade division.
sorry i didnt knew that this blog was about liberty, i just didnt notice, i just got carried away with the comments. Let me tell you why the idea that you are propogating is not possible from your very our suggestion.
”Currently this discussion here is going HUGE, and it doesn’t seem to be ending any time soon. So why don’t we keep this comment section relevant to the article.”
The above comment tells us what governmet is about, why is governing important. In a very polite way you governed me. So there is no such thing as liberty, or freedom. I am not free to post a comment as i wish. Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose.
or would say freedom is not possible without responsibility, responsibility towards your fellow humans, our environmnet or anything. Your are just believing in something that is not possible, individualism is not possible, we are all inter-related in more than just economic sense. There always would be a manager and there would be the workers. if every one becomes manager it wont work. so there is government and there are the people, every one cant be a government in itself. Well if you have problem with the governmnet then you can stand up in election and if you have the capablity get elected and become a part of the government, thou this anarchy capatalism may be good thing to discuss upon but its not practical.
And remember that Britishers ruled over india, but it was the “East India Company” that started it all. so basically its the company whom you are advocating. Government has democracy to correct itself but the company doesnt.
maya Says:
January 10th, 2009 at 9:34 amunpretentious diva
Let me tell you diva why completly unregulated system wont work.
The idea of all students going thru the same education till 10th is good because the purpose of that education is to impart basic knowledge of everything. The courseware till 10th provides you basic understanding of all fields and puts you into a better position to choose whichever field you want. I am saying this because i am not someone who considers education important but because of the primary education that i went thru i m in a place where i can comment on anything in an intelligible manner because my basics are clear.
Well let me explain how merit works. Merit separates the students into 3 grades’ low intelligence, average and high intelligence. You will say that you dont need high intelligence if you going to be a clerk, i agree that so the people with lower or average intelligence will automatically be absorbed by that clerk jobs. the people with higher intelligence take enginerring / medical science or many other fields. Are you saying that you can become an engineer without being intelligent then you are absolutely wrong. Merit decides the capablity of the individuals. What is the primary motive of an individual seeking a particular field its suceess in terms of monetary gains. so the people with better capability gets higher marks and they get higher jobs.
for eg. i would have liked to be an engineer but i didnt become one because of the merit system. i was terrible at maths. and you would understand that engineering is not possible without maths.
We have instutions for sculpturing, home science, homeopathy which ever you want to become. But when you are just 10 years old you are not aware of your interest or your talent. And you are in no position to choose a field. Thats were the primary education system comes. To get into a fine arts college you dont need good marks, if you can show your talent in the entrance exam you are in.. i went into a fine arts college too, but droped out because i relialized there are people who are more talented than me. and in fine arts too there is merit system. you are judged on your talent. Without examining system your talent cant be rated. The rated talent is benefitical to employers.
This is a situation that will collapse in a month if you are going to run it in a real world situation. Without a fram-work this wont work. Who decides the quality of syllabus, how does a company in bangalore hire some one who has studied in some college in Himachal when the company doesnt know what he has been taught. The company would have to screen 1000′s of individuals to get 1 right employee. But with the merit system and common education the company knows what exactly the student has been taught and its job is just to know how much does the employee know.
So you are referring to an ancient system in today’s context. Let me tell you that its not practicall atall in the first place.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
January 10th, 2009 at 7:47 pmI know you are a forged foreteller and nothing else.
I never said unregulated system, I said Private system.. A private system is NEVER unregulated, the college, school itself has freedom and ability to decide its syllabus, Market is the valuation decider.
It is a real world situation and it can never collapse. No regulatory company decides what should be the standard of a mobile or a TV, the manufacture needs to compete, they needs to attract and satisfy the consumer and hence make the profit, Market force lead the technology, Market force will lead the teaching technology and syllabus too. You need to google up or search at wikipedia about Maria Montessori! Or better watch the movie Taare Zameen Par once again! No centralized system can compete with montessori schooling. And what I am telling here is not only my thinking, Director of NCERT supports it.
Professor Krishna Kumar explains in his editorial article for “The Times Of India” writes about how the Indian Education system is a Zero Sum Game
And How can you say that a Private school managing the syllabus cannot provide you much better knowledge which the indian boards provides? Specially when the director of the main board NCERT doesn’t agree that Central education system is any good?
Private schools will be forced by Market to provide better and better and more competitive beneficial and overall more knowledgable curriculum and teaching techniques. The better school with better syllabus and better techniques and teachers will get More consumers hence more profit, to compete in market, other schools will innovate further better system. Its progressive, Government controlled systems are Monoplistic hence a failure they can never think of progress as there is no competition.
I know how merit system works and why it is a biggest failure. Also Merit system is useless because government itself makes it useless By declaring various Reservations and quotas, so your ideas are already faulty according to government.
Second thing is, the private schooling will provide much better, competent and energetic merit system.
It will not only help the student inteligent in a particular stream/subject to get better benefits, but also it will make those students who are weak in a particular subject but strong in some other activities, to gain maximum knowledge about the subject they are weak in Plus a special knowledge and ways to be professional in those subjects or streams in which they are talented. Wastage of talent will be minimized.
I am an Engineer, i was amongst the toppers list of the funniest pre-engineering entrance (AIEEE). I am not talking about making an engineer, i am talking about professionalizing a weak student in maths but talented in sculpturing to be enough strong and professional enough that he may make a good living. Private schools and colleges with their standard systems will provide much better meritorious students.
One more thing, Albert Einstein was not a meritorious student. he always failed in schools. centralized schools wastes talent. history is evident.
I never said primary education is useless. I am saying government IS NOT NECESSARY to decide the syllabus of primary schooling. Parents and private schools and teachers are there to help children know more about their talent. The IAS officer of your city didn’t came to your home telling you you are weak in maths.
The college, the companies, the employers decides the quality of syllabus, teaching and students, Market decides the quality. If there is a college in Himachal, and a company in Bangalore, the college will promote itself for campus, it will propagate what its syllabus is, why and how it is competent and it is providing good workers/engineers, it will also propagate what extra talents the students of that college have which will help the company to extract maximum profits and production. other colleges will also do same.
The company will select freely as it do right now.
Government or central boards or AICTE is not at all necessary for all this. But this is the fact that government and AICTE ruins and wastes allot of resources. That is why standards of education in India are low and always declining.
GP Says:
January 12th, 2009 at 4:47 pm@renegade_division
Dude,If you think that way then I am sure you must have already filed PIL in high court/Supreme court with all facts and figues(i.e. how much portion of tax being paid by you is used or misused by govt. in funding these public health care systems and schools/colleges)
which will expose Govt’s loot( as per your view) through tax collection or wait a minute why to worry so much ..why not just stop paying the taxes and give the rational explanation with all evidences on Government’s inefficiency in managing taxes to I. T. department..( nope I guess thats not good idea coz I. T/ dept.
is again a part of govt. so definitely they will refute your claims and might sue you under various sections for not obeying the law of land i.e. paying taxes to govt. as per I.T. rules)
or may be SC(Supreme Court)?..I know its very personal but may I ask you how much money you pay as tax exactly used by govt. to fund those public schools and colleges?..or may be misused?
(I am sure you must have those evidences too prove ur claim along with proofs that you never used those public healthcare systems and schools so far in your life and hence, you are entitled to have your money back..sounds logical?)
Also, let me ask you – What about the money spent by govt. on defence forces? I guess that too comes from taxes and now as govt. is damn cheater and always misuse this money collected through taxes
I think you wud definetly like to request govt. to ask how much portion of ur tax paid being used..sorry misused for defence expanditure and may be you wud like to employ your private guards to defend you from
any foreign or national danger/attacks? ( I am sure your own money is enough to buy their loyalty and honesty in keeping you safe from any daneger and they won’t double-cross you for the sake of extra money?..but hey I guess there is 1 glitch
- wht if govt. says – as you are on your own ( i.e. u don’t pay taxes for defence services) why don’t you just find any other country where there is a govt. or may be no govt. and only private bodies/service agencies which are catering to every need of people based on payment made to them i.e. right from defence to health-care,education,transportation,tele-communication,etc,etc. By the way if u do know such country then let me know buddy.I wud definitely like to visit it and who knows perhaps I plan to migrate there too.