Comments on: Civilization and its Discontents http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html Because everything has a reason! Sat, 14 Jan 2012 17:52:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: GP http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1909 GP Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:03:16 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1909 @Liberty Speaks Fair enough. All the best for next write-up and plzzzzzzz try to use less graphics in your next write-up coz I think they seem to be distractors and its quite likely that readers might loose essence of your writeup by focussing more on graphics rather than actual statements :-) @Liberty Speaks
Fair enough. All the best for next write-up and plzzzzzzz try to use less graphics in your next write-up coz I think they seem to be distractors and its quite likely that readers might loose
essence of your writeup by focussing more on graphics rather than actual statements :-)

]]> By: Gaurav http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1908 Gaurav Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:57:17 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1908 A well-compiled write-up but then the fragmentation of society between few liberals and masses of colletivist will continue for centuries, one of the reason is the coincidence or the truth of religion finding its foot earlier than science and yes it could have been other way around, but the homosapiens evolved in such a way where they accepted first and revolted later,whereas they could have procured,established and then challenged facts in objective way, anyways the reminiscences of all those ethics will need more than few liberals to eradicate, and As they say every collective aproach gives breathing space to the meeks, it is also going to exist because as social condition goes by,"we are all a help-less creature in the hands of god", these are the first words that goes by,where god is just a subjective analogy for human escapades through varios fallacies, and talkin about sin it's  not effect of aspiration but Inefficiency, incompetency, greed and mysticism.But then one of the reasons for civilization and its discontent is also a failure of the rationalist to deliver to the world what they see,all those who claim to be objectivist because they believe in Ayn rand are nothin but those increasing the followers of mysticism,As I say objectivism can never be taught,prophesing objectivism makes it subjectives,it takes its basic meaning,also liberty is not something which can be made accessible to people but liberty is something to aspire for according to one's own desire,also the truth is that without any doubt most of the people will be found as satisfied with the liberty they are enjoying but then again social-conditioning is all which cares for most of our behavioral aspects, without any doubt more freedom will lead to a more rational and safer society but then none of the country in the world can delve into such laws because of the reason of not society is fearful of individuals but society is fearful of society itself, It reasons that will lose its worth if liberty gains dominance, A well-compiled write-up but then the fragmentation of society between few liberals and masses of colletivist will continue for centuries, one of the reason is the coincidence or the truth of religion finding its foot earlier than science and yes it could have been other way around, but the homosapiens evolved in such a way where they accepted first and revolted later,whereas they could have procured,established and then challenged facts in objective way, anyways the reminiscences of all those ethics will need more than few liberals to eradicate, and As they say every collective aproach gives breathing space to the meeks, it is also going to exist because as social condition goes by,”we are all a help-less creature in the hands of god”, these are the first words that goes by,where god is just a subjective analogy for human escapades through varios fallacies, and talkin about sin it’s  not effect of aspiration but Inefficiency, incompetency, greed and mysticism.But then one of the reasons for civilization and its discontent is also a failure of the rationalist to deliver to the world what they see,all those who claim to be objectivist because they believe in Ayn rand are nothin but those increasing the followers of mysticism,As I say objectivism can never be taught,prophesing objectivism makes it subjectives,it takes its basic meaning,also liberty is not something which can be made accessible to people but liberty is something to aspire for according to one’s own desire,also the truth is that without any doubt most of the people will be found as satisfied with the liberty they are enjoying but then again social-conditioning is all which cares for most of our behavioral aspects, without any doubt more freedom will lead to a more rational and safer society but then none of the country in the world can delve into such laws because of the reason of not society is fearful of individuals but society is fearful of society itself, It reasons that will lose its worth if liberty gains dominance,

]]> By: Liberty Speaks http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1907 Liberty Speaks Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:43:11 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1907 @ GP well Road less travelled is the first book I ever read on psychology, it was 7 years back and I am thankful for having come accross that book. As far freud is considerd in the begining only I addressed the controversies linked to his studies and backed my article on results of present day studies on cognitive psyshology and social psychology. I had to mention Freud because the title Civilization and its discontents is a direct take from his title. I had to give him the credit of that. I have not got back to freud on any other aspect that that smaal para on communism. I am in awe with ur dedication and energy, I guess you are my first and probably the only serious reader. Please keep questioning I will try and answer the issue of child education in the next post. Please wait thanks :) @ GP
well Road less travelled is the first book I ever read on psychology, it was 7 years back and I am thankful for having come accross that book. As far freud is considerd in the begining only I addressed the controversies linked to his studies and backed my article on results of present day studies on cognitive psyshology and social psychology. I had to mention Freud because the title Civilization and its discontents is a direct take from his title. I had to give him the credit of that. I have not got back to freud on any other aspect that that smaal para on communism.
I am in awe with ur dedication and energy, I guess you are my first and probably the only serious reader. Please keep questioning I will try and answer the issue of child education in the next post. Please wait thanks :)

]]> By: GP http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1906 GP Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:26:02 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1906 @LibertySpeaks I guess you have given me a lead to my next topic…but anyways dont you think that if child wants to play we must allow them to. We make rules and then expect other not to break them. Was the teachers decision to make all children do maths for that day justified!… <<<<<Yup I do agree but that also doesn't mean children shouldn't study at all right?..I mean you have to have some sort of restrictions for overall growth of children ..right?>>> Till the time you don’t thnk out of the box you will never get me, education system, well I have written already and so has diva, especially on Montessori education system. <<<Sorry I may not have read that article but as far as I remember I only read in which "writers condenmed govt. stance of "free education to all">>>> Its easy to make rules yaar, How many times do we question the need and authenticity of these rules. How much of regulation is needed and what can be done away with. <<<<Is it question or comments on existing regulations?..let me clarify again -- We can always question the need of rules on logical premises and I think if they are outdated then we can always refine them to suit to our current needs. But I think you will also agree to the fact that - No rules , no regulations and unrestricted freedom can always be dangerous. So they are must to bring sense of responsibility and accountability among individuals.>>> well about the people who are content with what they have, yes there are such ppl…but I am sorry the world you live in every invention every discovery, every thing that has manifested into achievement of this great human civilization is attributed to people who are not contented. <<<<<And I already agreed to it. In fact I mentioned them in my exception category plz refer my earlier statement i.e. "Note : here I am only refering to person’s materilistic needs/desires and <U> not about hunger of seeking knowledge and ultimate truth about origin of human race."</U>>>>>>>> I cant help you with your biases, I deliberately avoided philosophical data in the article and added reference of Sigmund Freud only to give a scientific backing to facts quoted. Yes you can deny it, and say that people are contended, but scientific studies into social psychology denies so. <<<<Well, personally I don't have very good opinion about Mr. Sigmung Freud who proposed theories like  - "Childrens especially boys are sexually attracted towards their mothers' by birth which starts from breastfeeding activity while teenage girls are sexually attracted towards their fathers"  also, I think you will also accept that most of the well-known psychoanalyst and experts criticized Mr. Freud for generalising his psychoanalytical results based on few of his cases studies.My point is -- Discontentment in Social psychology cannot be concluded and defintely can't be generalised based on Mr. Freud's analysis. In fact, the whole world is full of exceptions and as long as there are exceptions you can generalised your findings/results unless they limited the scope to their findings to specific dataset.  >>>>>> If you were to be transported from here to some war ridden military ruled country in Africa, you would immediately protest that your cilil rights are at jeopardy and you are not free. If you ask ppl who are born and brought up there, there reaction would be mixed most wont know what rights and what breach of liberty you are talking about. <<<<This is about awareness of your rights. which I think could be a complete new topic for disucussion and really - I am not biased against individual liberty , My only point is liberty/freedom shudn't be unrestricted>>>>> anyways thanks for the read…the fact that you regularly read, gives me the assurance that at least you have a open mind and are willing to go through thoughts that contradicts with your presently held ideas. This I guess is your strength, I am sure that you would see your ideas refining (I am not saying changing, you may get better with your own ideas perhaps) with time. <<<<<<<I am glad to read that and thanks a lot of for reading my comments and spending your precious time to express your feedback :)..I am not sure exactly what kind of leads my comments provided you to write about but I hope to see your post soon. By the way I will suggest you to read - "Roadless Travelled" by Dr. M Scott Peck  in case you are planning to write about human psychology/spirituality in near future. >>>>>>> @LibertySpeaks
I guess you have given me a lead to my next topic…but anyways
dont you think that if child wants to play we must allow them to. We make rules and then expect other not to break them. Was the teachers decision to make all children do maths for that day justified!…
<<<<<Yup I do agree but that also doesn’t mean children shouldn’t study at all right?..I mean you have to have some sort of restrictions for overall growth of children ..right?>>>
Till the time you don’t thnk out of the box you will never get me, education system, well I have written already and so has diva, especially on Montessori education system.
<<<Sorry I may not have read that article but as far as I remember I only read in which “writers condenmed govt. stance of “free education to all”>>>>
Its easy to make rules yaar, How many times do we question the need and authenticity of these rules. How much of regulation is needed and what can be done away with.
<<<<Is it question or comments on existing regulations?..let me clarify again — We can always question the need of rules on logical premises and I think if they are outdated then we can always refine them to suit to our current needs. But I think you will also agree to the fact that – No rules , no regulations and unrestricted freedom can always be dangerous. So they are must to bring sense of responsibility and accountability among individuals.>>>

well about the people who are content with what they have, yes there are such ppl…but I am sorry the world you live in every invention every discovery, every thing that has manifested into achievement of this great human civilization is attributed to people who are not contented.
<<<<<And I already agreed to it. In fact I mentioned them in my exception category plz refer my earlier statement i.e. “Note : here I am only refering to person’s materilistic needs/desires and <U> not about hunger of seeking knowledge and ultimate truth about origin of human race.”</U>>>>>>>>
I cant help you with your biases, I deliberately avoided philosophical data in the article and added reference of Sigmund Freud only to give a scientific backing to facts quoted. Yes you can deny it, and say that people are contended, but scientific studies into social psychology denies so.
<<<<Well, personally I don’t have very good opinion about Mr. Sigmung Freud who proposed theories like  – “Childrens especially boys are sexually attracted towards their mothers’ by birth which starts from breastfeeding activity while teenage girls are sexually attracted towards their fathers”  also, I think you will also accept that most of the well-known psychoanalyst and experts criticized Mr. Freud for generalising his psychoanalytical results based on few of his cases studies.My point is — Discontentment in Social psychology cannot be concluded and defintely can’t be generalised based on Mr. Freud’s analysis. In fact, the whole world is full of exceptions and as long as there are exceptions you can generalised your findings/results unless they limited the scope to their findings to specific dataset.
 >>>>>>
If you were to be transported from here to some war ridden military ruled country in Africa, you would immediately protest that your cilil rights are at jeopardy and you are not free. If you ask ppl who are born and brought up there, there reaction would be mixed most wont know what rights and what breach of liberty you are talking about.
<<<<This is about awareness of your rights. which I think could be a complete new topic for disucussion and really – I am not biased against individual liberty , My only point is liberty/freedom shudn’t be unrestricted>>>>>
anyways thanks for the read…the fact that you regularly read, gives me the assurance that at least you have a open mind and are willing to go through thoughts that contradicts with your presently held ideas. This I guess is your strength, I am sure that you would see your ideas refining (I am not saying changing, you may get better with your own ideas perhaps) with time.
<<<<<<<I am glad to read that and thanks a lot of for reading my comments and spending your precious time to express your feedback :) ..I am not sure exactly what kind of leads my comments provided you to write about but I hope to see your post soon.
By the way I will suggest you to read – “Roadless Travelled” by Dr. M Scott Peck  in case you are planning to write about human psychology/spirituality in near future.
>>>>>>>

]]> By: Liberty Speaks http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1905 Liberty Speaks Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:09:53 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1905 @ GP I guess you have given me a lead to my next topic...but anyways dont you think that if child wants to play we must allow them to. We make rules and then expect other not to break them. Was the teachers decision to make all children do maths for that day justified!... Till the time you don't thnk out of the box you will never get me, education system, well I have written already and so has diva, especially on Montessori education system. Its easy to make rules yaar, How many times do we question the need and authenticity of these rules. How much of regulation is needed and what can be done away with. well about the people who are content with what they have, yes there are such ppl...but I am sorry the world you live in every invention every discovery, every thing that has manifested into achievement of this great human civilization is attributed to people who are not contented. I cant help you with your biases, I deliberately avoided philosophical data in the article and added reference of Sigmund Freud only to give a scientific backing to facts quoted. Yes you can deny it, and say that people are contended, but scientific studies into social psychology denies so. If you were to be transported from here to some war ridden military ruled country in Africa, you would immediately protest that your cilil rights are at jeopardy and you are not free. If you ask ppl who are born and brought up there, there reaction would be mixed most wont know what rights and what breach of liberty you are talking about. anyways thanks for the read...the fact that you regularly read, gives me the assurance that at least you have a open mind and are willing to go through thoughts that contradicts with your presently held ideas. This I guess is your strength, I am sure that you would see your ideas refining (I am not saying changing, you may get better with your own ideas perhaps) with time. @ GP
I guess you have given me a lead to my next topic…but anyways dont you think that if child wants to play we must allow them to. We make rules and then expect other not to break them. Was the teachers decision to make all children do maths for that day justified!…

Till the time you don’t thnk out of the box you will never get me, education system, well I have written already and so has diva, especially on Montessori education system.
Its easy to make rules yaar, How many times do we question the need and authenticity of these rules. How much of regulation is needed and what can be done away with.

well about the people who are content with what they have, yes there are such ppl…but I am sorry the world you live in every invention every discovery, every thing that has manifested into achievement of this great human civilization is attributed to people who are not contented.

I cant help you with your biases, I deliberately avoided philosophical data in the article and added reference of Sigmund Freud only to give a scientific backing to facts quoted. Yes you can deny it, and say that people are contended, but scientific studies into social psychology denies so.

If you were to be transported from here to some war ridden military ruled country in Africa, you would immediately protest that your cilil rights are at jeopardy and you are not free. If you ask ppl who are born and brought up there, there reaction would be mixed most wont know what rights and what breach of liberty you are talking about.

anyways thanks for the read…the fact that you regularly read, gives me the assurance that at least you have a open mind and are willing to go through thoughts that contradicts with your presently held ideas. This I guess is your strength, I am sure that you would see your ideas refining (I am not saying changing, you may get better with your own ideas perhaps) with time.

]]> By: GP http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1904 GP Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:53:46 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1904 Hi Libertyspeaks Sorry for extended comments but I just thought may be its worth posting..of course everybody do not  think same :) Truth is we are very instinctively like that, nature has designed us thus to struggle and thrive and leave no stone unturned to get better off than our peers. <<<<Such behaviour can be attributed to your conditioning right from your childhood. I have seen lot of people who are just content with what they have and they always attributed everything they have as grace of god. My point is - whether your ambitious or content in your life based upon your upbringing and maturity of your EQ. Note : here I am only refering to person's materilistic needs/desires and not about hunger of seeking knowledge and ultimate truth about origin of human race. >>> You would have invariably all religious doctrine dictating men what to do and what not to, invoking strong sense of fear and sense of guilt with in an individual. <<<<Yup and thats why we have issues like "Jihaad" and all. I think person shud be spiritual and not religious as mostly religious things are full of antagonistic rituals and processions. But that doesn't mean all teachings in religious scriptures don't have any scientific basis associated with it. e.g. Hindu scriptures - they have the ancient wisdom which is applicable to modern era as well to resolve your scientific/political/soci-economic doubts,etc. But sadly- we lack authentic Sanskrit scholars who can decrypt that knowledge in laymen's terms and this is being misused by some vested interests/self-proclaimed religious scholars to misguide/brainwash people to pursue their own interests.>>>>> If we develop a society with higher level of freedom more sources of enterprise, more options for men to constructively compete and vent out this energy in a more productive way, wont our society be better? Will it not bring down the level of this discontentment drastically down? <<<<<Yup it will. Definately!  but the problem is - ppl are not innocent like child Not in kaliyuga ( if u do believe in Yugas) as they used to be in SatyaYuga. So the - Share and Care factor almost limited to individual him/herself perhaps, extended to his/her immediate family but when u think about society as a whole then Nope.  reasons?-- No social bonds ..no affection for fellow human beings ..certainly not! especially when U are brainwahsed with extreme inidividualism whoes funda is - "survival of fittest"  ( I am not saying its entirely wrong - exceptions cud be competitions and wild animals' world (where they are totally dependent on other animal's meat for their survival except the vegetarian's (elephants,Jiraffe ..I really forgot wht scientist call them scientifically :P ) The point is - "live and let live" habbit is been vanished(with few exceptions) coz they forgot "Jatasya hee Druvo Mrityu" and not realising they are not taking anything back with them after their death.>>>>>> Truth is that all the laws and regulation that we are subjected to are unwarranted. Most can be dispensed with, and if we ever want human societies to evolve into more stable, progressive and happy entity, this is what we finally need to do. <<<<<Give me one good reason - that ppl will behave if there are no laws/rules and regulations? I mean cmmmmmon - just imagine you are in 4th standard and your teacher asked you to do the sums and she will not be coming back whole day and other teachers are also quite buzy in their work ( basically noone to monitor wht children are doing) then what will you do? in case your all classmates come up with this brilliant idea of going out and playing football on playground ( I know they are rare nowaday's but in our imaginary example its present) ..I mean certainly you will say - "No" unless you are being sensitive about being "standing out different among your peers or taunted as most studious and obedient student in a bad way by ur classmates "  .  and I think u wud agree that - how today's childrens and teenagers sensitive about their image among their peers. My point is - very few ppl try to be responsible while enjoying there freedom( Reasons cud be anything)   and hence, we need rules and regulations to keep in check that  irresponsible behavioural pattern. Hi Libertyspeaks
Sorry for extended comments but I just thought may be its worth posting..of course everybody do not  think same :)
Truth is we are very instinctively like that, nature has designed us thus to struggle and thrive and leave no stone unturned to get better off than our peers.

<<<<Such behaviour can be attributed to your conditioning right from your childhood. I have seen lot of people who are just content with what they have and they always
attributed everything they have as grace of god. My point is – whether your ambitious or content in your life based upon your upbringing and maturity of your EQ.
Note : here I am only refering to person’s materilistic needs/desires and not about hunger of seeking knowledge and ultimate truth about origin of human race.
>>>
You would have invariably all religious doctrine dictating men what to do and what not to, invoking strong sense of fear and sense of guilt with in an individual.

<<<<Yup and thats why we have issues like “Jihaad” and all. I think person shud be spiritual and not religious as mostly religious things are full of antagonistic rituals and processions. But that doesn’t mean all teachings in religious scriptures don’t have any scientific basis associated with it. e.g. Hindu scriptures – they have the ancient wisdom which is applicable to modern era as well to resolve your scientific/political/soci-economic doubts,etc. But sadly- we lack authentic Sanskrit scholars who can decrypt that knowledge in laymen’s terms and this is being misused by some vested interests/self-proclaimed
religious scholars to misguide/brainwash people to pursue their own interests.>>>>>
If we develop a society with higher level of freedom more sources of enterprise, more options for men to constructively compete and vent out this energy in a more productive way, wont our society be better? Will it not bring down the level of this discontentment drastically down?
<<<<<Yup it will. Definately!  but the problem is – ppl are not innocent like child Not in kaliyuga ( if u do believe in Yugas) as they used to be in SatyaYuga. So the – Share and Care factor almost limited to individual him/herself perhaps, extended to his/her immediate family but when u think about society as a whole then Nope.  reasons?– No social bonds ..no affection for fellow human beings ..certainly not! especially when U are brainwahsed with extreme inidividualism whoes funda is – “survival of fittest”  ( I am not saying its entirely wrong – exceptions cud be competitions and wild animals’ world (where they are totally dependent on other animal’s meat for their survival except the vegetarian’s (elephants,Jiraffe ..I really forgot wht scientist call them scientifically :P )

The point is – “live and let live” habbit is been vanished(with few exceptions) coz they forgot “Jatasya hee Druvo Mrityu” and not realising they are not taking anything back with them after their death.>>>>>>

Truth is that all the laws and regulation that we are subjected to are unwarranted. Most can be dispensed with, and if we ever want human societies to evolve into more stable, progressive and happy entity, this is what we finally need to do.

<<<<<Give me one good reason – that ppl will behave if there are no laws/rules and regulations? I mean cmmmmmon – just imagine you are in 4th standard and your teacher asked you to do the sums and she will not be coming back whole day and other teachers are also quite buzy in their work ( basically noone to monitor wht children are doing) then what will you do? in case your all classmates come up with this brilliant idea of going out and playing football on playground ( I know they are rare nowaday’s but in our imaginary example its present)

..I mean certainly you will say – “No” unless you are being sensitive about being “standing out different among your peers or taunted as most studious and obedient student in a bad way by ur classmates “  .  and I think u wud agree that – how today’s childrens and teenagers sensitive about their image among their peers.

My point is – very few ppl try to be responsible while enjoying there freedom( Reasons cud be anything)   and hence, we need rules and regulations to keep in check that  irresponsible behavioural pattern.

]]> By: Liberty Speaks http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1902 Liberty Speaks Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:45:47 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1902 @ Diva yeah you are right...but I kept philosophers out of the count because I wanted to keep the article a scientific perspective. Anyways I hope the idea gets conveyed better this time around. @ Diva
yeah you are right…but I kept philosophers out of the count because I wanted to keep the article a scientific perspective. Anyways I hope the idea gets conveyed better this time around.

]]> By: Unpretentious Diva http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1903 Unpretentious Diva Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:40:18 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1903 Jhanvi, First of all, let me congratulate you for this excellent write up. <em> The first person to ever dwell upon this topic was Sigmund Freud</em> Well, you are a little wrong there. <a href="http://www.reasonforliberty.com/current-affairs/human-pet.html" rel="nofollow">Marquis De Sade</a> was the first person to dwell upon it. He was murdered by the then society. Jhanvi,
First of all, let me congratulate you for this excellent write up.

The first person to ever dwell upon this topic was Sigmund Freud

Well, you are a little wrong there.
Marquis De Sade was the first person to dwell upon it. He was murdered by the then society.

]]> By: Avionic Spanker http://www.reasonforliberty.com/objectivism/civilization-and-its-discontents.html#comment-1901 Avionic Spanker Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:37:44 +0000 http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=2235#comment-1901 Very well-written.  I suppose the only counter to logic of Libertarianism, for lack of a better word, is the unfettered greed that can lead to the downfall of people and others who are directly or indirectly linked to them. Case in point, the collapse of the US banking giants. Having said that, I want to reiterate that I agree with most of what Rand said. I also believe in mulling it over and seeing how much of it is relevant and can be practiced in today's world. Rand's principles and communism probably represent two extremes of thought. I am glad I discovered your post and will go through the rest soon. Very well-written.  I suppose the only counter to logic of Libertarianism, for lack of a better word, is the unfettered greed that can lead to the downfall of people and others who are directly or indirectly linked to them. Case in point, the collapse of the US banking giants.

Having said that, I want to reiterate that I agree with most of what Rand said. I also believe in mulling it over and seeing how much of it is relevant and can be practiced in today’s world. Rand’s principles and communism probably represent two extremes of thought.

I am glad I discovered your post and will go through the rest soon.

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