Sure we don’t mind doing that. But can we have the refund of the money which was forced from us in terms of revenues, duties, and taxes to fund these public schools and hospitals?
Oh wait you want me to pay for the education of poor people, and spend less on my own, what morale are you really holding for that?

Dude,If you think that way then I am sure you must have already filed PIL in high court/Supreme court with all facts and figues(i.e. how much portion of tax being paid by you is used or misused by govt. in funding these public health care systems and schools/colleges)
which will expose Govt’s loot( as per your view) through tax collection or wait a minute why to worry so much ..why not just stop paying the taxes and give the rational explanation with all evidences on Government’s inefficiency in managing taxes to I. T. department..( nope I guess thats not good idea coz I. T/ dept.
is again a part of govt. so definitely they will refute your claims and might sue you under various sections for not obeying the law of land i.e. paying taxes to govt. as per I.T. rules)
or may be SC(Supreme Court)?..I know its very personal but may I ask you how much money you pay as tax exactly used by govt. to fund those public schools and colleges?..or may be misused?
(I am sure you must have those evidences too prove ur claim along with proofs that you never used those public healthcare systems and schools so far in your life and hence, you are entitled to have your money back..sounds logical?)
Also, let me ask you – What about the money spent by govt. on defence forces? I guess that too comes from taxes and now as govt. is damn cheater and always misuse this money collected through taxes
I think you wud definetly like to request govt. to ask how much portion of ur tax paid being used..sorry misused for defence expanditure and may be you wud like to employ your private guards to defend you from
any foreign or national danger/attacks? ( I am sure your own money is enough to buy their loyalty and honesty in keeping you safe from any daneger and they won’t double-cross you for the sake of extra money?..but hey I guess there is 1 glitch
- wht if govt. says – as you are on your own ( i.e. u don’t pay taxes for defence services) why don’t you just find any other country where there is a govt. or may be no govt. and only private bodies/service agencies which are catering to every need of people based on payment made to them i.e. right from defence to health-care,education,transportation,tele-communication,etc,etc. By the way if u do know such country  then let me know buddy.I wud definitely like to visit it and who knows perhaps I plan to migrate there too.

Let me tell you diva why completly unregulated system wont work.

I know you are a forged foreteller and nothing else.
I never said unregulated system, I said Private system.. A private system is NEVER unregulated, the college, school itself has freedom and ability to decide its syllabus, Market is the valuation decider.

This is a situation that will collapse in a month if you are going to run it in a real world situation. Without a fram-work this wont work.

It is a real world situation and it can never collapse. No regulatory company decides what should be the standard of a mobile or a TV, the manufacture needs to compete, they needs to attract and satisfy the consumer and hence make the profit, Market force lead the technology, Market force will lead the teaching technology and syllabus too. You need to google up or search at wikipedia about Maria Montessori! Or better watch the movie Taare Zameen Par once again! No centralized system can compete with montessori schooling. And what I am telling here is not only my thinking, Director of NCERT supports it.

Professor Krishna Kumar explains in his editorial article for “The Times Of India” writes about how the Indian Education system is a Zero Sum Game

The idea of all students going thru the same education till 10th is good because the purpose of that education is to impart basic knowledge of everything.  

And How can you say that a Private school managing the syllabus cannot provide you much better knowledge which the indian boards provides? Specially when the director of the main board NCERT doesn’t agree that Central education system is any good?
Private schools will be forced by Market to provide better and better and more competitive beneficial and overall more knowledgable curriculum and teaching techniques. The better school with better syllabus and better techniques and teachers will get More consumers hence more profit, to compete in market, other schools will innovate further better system. Its progressive, Government controlled systems are Monoplistic hence a failure they can never think of progress as there is no competition.

Well let me explain how merit works.

I know how merit system works and why it is a biggest failure. Also Merit system is useless because government itself makes it useless By declaring various Reservations and quotas, so your ideas are already faulty according to government.
Second thing is, the private schooling will provide much better, competent and energetic merit system.
It will not only help the student inteligent in a particular stream/subject to get better benefits, but also it will make those students who are weak in a particular subject but strong in some other activities, to gain maximum knowledge about the subject they are weak in Plus a special knowledge and ways to be professional in those subjects or streams in which they are talented. Wastage of talent will be minimized.

for eg. i would have liked to be an engineer but i didnt become one because of the merit system. i was terrible at maths. and you would understand that engineering is not possible without maths.

I am an Engineer, i was amongst the toppers list of the funniest pre-engineering entrance (AIEEE). I am not talking about making an engineer, i am talking about professionalizing a weak student in maths but talented in sculpturing to be enough strong and professional enough that he may make a good living. Private schools and colleges with their standard systems will provide much better meritorious students.
One more thing, Albert Einstein was not a meritorious student. he always failed in schools. centralized schools wastes talent. history is evident.

But when you are just 10 years old you are not aware of your interest or your talent. And you are in no position to choose a field. Thats were the primary education  system comes. To get into a fine arts college you dont need good marks, if you can show your talent in the entrance exam you are in..  

I never said primary education is useless. I am saying government IS NOT NECESSARY to decide the syllabus of primary schooling. Parents and private schools and teachers are there to help children know more about their talent. The IAS officer of your city didn’t came to your home telling you you are weak in maths.

Who decides the quality of syllabus, how does a company in bangalore hire some one who has studied in some college in Himachal when the company doesnt know what he has been taught. The company would have to screen 1000’s of individuals to get 1 right employee. But with the merit system and common education the company knows what exactly the student has been taught and its job is just to know how much does the employee know.

The college, the companies, the employers decides the quality of syllabus, teaching and students, Market decides the quality. If there is a college in Himachal, and a company in Bangalore, the college will promote itself for campus, it will propagate what its syllabus is, why and how it is competent and it is providing good workers/engineers, it will also propagate what extra talents the students of that college have which will help the company to extract maximum profits and production. other colleges will also do same.
The company will select freely as it do right now.
Government or central boards or AICTE is not at all necessary for all this. But this is the fact that government and AICTE ruins and wastes allot of resources. That is why standards of education in India are low and always declining.

Let me tell you diva why completly unregulated system wont work.

The idea of all students going thru the same education till 10th is good because the purpose of that education is to impart basic knowledge of everything.  The courseware till 10th provides you basic understanding of all fields and puts you into a better position to choose whichever field you want. I am saying this because i am not someone who considers education important but because of the primary education that i went thru i m in a place where i can comment on anything in an intelligible manner because my basics are clear.

Well let me explain how merit works. Merit separates the students into 3 grades’ low intelligence, average and high intelligence. You will say that you dont need high intelligence if you going to be a clerk, i agree that so the people with lower or average intelligence will automatically be absorbed by that clerk jobs. the people with higher intelligence take enginerring / medical science or many other fields. Are you saying that you can become an engineer without being intelligent then you are absolutely wrong. Merit decides the capablity of the individuals.  What is the primary motive of an individual seeking a particular field its suceess in terms of monetary gains. so the people with better capability gets higher marks and they get higher jobs.

for eg. i would have liked to be an engineer but i didnt become one because of the merit system. i was terrible at maths. and you would understand that engineering is not possible without maths. 

We have instutions for sculpturing, home science, homeopathy which ever you want to become. But when you are just 10 years old you are not aware of your interest or your talent. And you are in no position to choose a field. Thats were the primary education  system comes. To get into a fine arts college you dont need good marks, if you can show your talent in the entrance exam you are in..  i went into a fine arts college too, but droped out because i relialized there are people who are more talented than me. and in fine arts too there is merit system. you are judged on your talent.  Without examining system your talent cant be rated. The rated talent is benefitical to employers. 

Now consider this if there’s no central board governing all
the private colleges have freedom to chose their own syllabus and techniques and procedures of educating

This is a situation that will collapse in a month if you are going to run it in a real world situation. Without a fram-work this wont work. Who decides the quality of syllabus, how does a company in bangalore hire some one who has studied in some college in Himachal when the company doesnt know what he has been taught. The company would have to screen 1000′s of individuals to get 1 right employee. But with the merit system and common education the company knows what exactly the student has been taught and its job is just to know how much does the employee know.

We are the country which provided first world recognized private universities of Takshila Nalanda. Remember the Takshila which produced Great scholars like Chanakya who alone challenged and defeated the draconic rulers of Nand vansh. So I am not talking of something which is western. I am talking of Indian culture. Gurudakshina . 

So you are referring to an ancient system in today’s context. Let me tell you that its not practicall atall in the first place. 

sorry i didnt knew that this blog was about liberty, i just didnt notice, i just got carried away with the comments. Let me tell you why the idea that you are propogating is not possible from your very our suggestion.

 ”Currently this discussion here is going HUGE, and it doesn’t seem to be ending any time soon. So why don’t we keep this comment section relevant to the article.”

The above comment tells us what governmet is about, why is governing important. In a very polite way you governed me. So there is no such thing as liberty, or freedom. I am not free to post a comment as i wish.  Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. 

or would say freedom is not possible without responsibility, responsibility towards your fellow humans, our environmnet or anything. Your are just believing in something that is not possible, individualism is not possible, we are all inter-related in more than just economic sense. There always would be a manager and there would be the workers. if every one becomes manager it wont work. so there is government and there are the people, every one cant be a government in itself. Well if you have problem with the governmnet then you can stand up in election and if you have the capablity get elected and become a part of the government, thou this anarchy capatalism may be good thing to discuss upon but its not practical.

And remember that Britishers ruled over india, but it was the “East India Company” that started it all. so basically its the company whom you are advocating. Government has democracy to correct itself but the company doesnt.

bout Meritocracy – I don’t think it will be compromised as long as private bodies maintain  high standards in teaching staff, methods of imparting knowledge and of course evaluation criteria.

The meaning of merit will change
See the meritorious students in current engineering colleges aren’t the one who gets best placements
The employers test their own self, and many a times, the students with just quallifying marks like 60% gets better jobs than the top rankers
the employers gets the freedom to chose what they want
Now consider this if there’s no central board governing all
the private colleges have freedom to chose their own syllabus and techniques and procedures of educating
They will have proper researched system to meet with demands of market plus a proper research to meet demands of consumers that is students and their parents
in absence of central board system, the meaning of merit will change completely, and it will be better with lots of choices for students, and for employers.
There will be schools for sculpturing, drawing, tea-making, home sciences, even for homeservices, baby sitting too and it will be proper profession, making people learn efficiency and profit making. Market decides education.

Indian historical culture supports private education. We are the country which provided first world recognized private universities of Takshila Nalanda. Remember the Takshila which produced Great scholars like Chanakya who alone challenged and defeated the draconic rulers of Nand vansh. So I am not talking of something which is western. I am talking of Indian culture. Gurudakshina . And surely the Voluntary supporters for some/any educational institute may finance for it too freely. Education will become cheaper and easily available for poorest of the society too.
The current examples are the Private Schools run by Arya Samaj. Any of those schools are professional competent and efficient. What are common fees of those schools? In Bhopal it is mere Rs80/- per month. Even a local labour earns rs125/- per day.

Take for example lets say I don’t wanna study? I mean does everyone have to study? We do brainwash every kid to study, but lets say I feel through the cracks, I just wanna sit on my dad’s shop until I am 18 and then I wanna start my own business, why should my dad keep on paying for an educational system which we are never going to use??

so how does a child know at a very young age if the wants to study or not. does it mean that you dont know if you are going to get some disease in the future then why do u spend on vaccination. 
So that when your dad is paying those taxes for the education of some other child, one day that child will become your customer one day when you have started your business and as he is well educated there are good chances that he would be making some handsome salary which he would use to buy services from your business. Even if the child leaves the education in between he buys those books and pencils that you sell.

Market means a system of individuals performing voluntary transactions with each other. You can’t define a need such as education, fulfill it forcefully and then claim to help the Market.

Nobody is forcing to take education, its just they are given a choice. They are given a chance that if they have the talent then they can make it. In the same way your father is giving you a chance at your business by saving money for you. The education is the capital of the student, who may use it and be successful or may not be but atleast a chance is provided to prove himself.

There must be a million+ individuals in India who are shopkeepers who never use anything beyond basic education for their job. So my question is you took massive taxes from them, so technically you took away a large part of their education from them. Can you really feel for the Business community?

as i have referred before too, the taxes are used to develop market and the resources. So if one day any of those shop keepers decide to construct a shopping mall, he would be able to find those educated people required, which had been made possible because of the taxes that he paid.

That’s totally not true on so many counts, suffers from numerous economics fallacies, and they have been refuted numerous times.
Because according to this logic, if I tax 100% to the people, and redistribute it among people, they will spend it in the Market, it will totally give us massive prosperity boost.

So you seem to be very well versed with economic theories. If 100% of the money distributed is spent in the market, where does that money goes. It logical to think the money expands the market giving a prosperity boom but because it takes too much time in this process it not evident in short period. As far as i understand the money is like energy, it doesnt get created not gets destory it just gets transfered / transformed to someone else/ something else.

pardon me if i am wrong anywhere, i m just an drop out undergraduate, who didnt very well utilised the tax payers money

What you are saying is all theories, do u have a practical approach about how the govt. could be avoided in the entirety. its a big system, and its noway possible to completely do away with the govt.

That is the sad part. The fact that you think govt cannot be avoided. There is no logical basis for such a belief, other than the fact that you never really have thought about it.
Have you ever thought how govt can be removed before you found someone like me talking about it?? Which course in your school education covered “Anarchy”??
I even have had people telling me “we have tried anarchy and it doesn’t work”. The thing is, there is a huge ideological movement out there called Anarcho-Capitalism. There are huge amount of literature available on it(just type it on google for starters).
But I seriously don’t wanna discuss that with you right now, I wanna go into a more ideological issue here. LIBERTY!
The reason why a society with no govt is desirable is because of Liberty. The govt takes away our Liberties and we wanna get rid of that. I am sure you don’t mind giving up those Liberties, but don’t forget Britishers were in India for 200 years, and our Freedom Movement was there only for 90 years.

That means for first 110 years, nobody(other than the kings) really had a problem with Britishers ruling them. I mean imagine if this is sunny day in 1840, and you are called by the District Collector(a Britisher) to deposit the Lagaan(TAX), are you really thinking “Angrezo Bharat Chodo”, or are you just thinking “Damn the production this year wasn’t good enough, how do I convince him to not take the lagaan this year?
In fact the revolution of 1857 wasn’t even about Independence it was a mutiny by the soldiers against their superior officers which was taken in charge by the ex-kings and nawabs.
Its not about our preference to Taxation, or Public or Private Education. Its about Liberty.

Just because the shoe which goes on to my face is of an Indian guy and not a Britisher and even though I have the power to change the person whose shoe its going to be on my face but the shoe can never go away, doesn’t mean anything has changed.
A Britisher spat on your face then, a democratically elected Indian guy does the same thing to you now. Is that really freedom?
Is the power to choose your rapist, really a power of any kind? Is the power to choose your murderer a power of any kind?

Its about Liberty, and Reason!

The discussion between you and me has to be on a more ideological level(and since they spawn really long) Why don’t you make a blog post on your blog, and we will reply you here on our blog. Make a case why you think we don’t need Liberty anymore.

i am wondering at the lack of your understanding some basic things. when i said lack of education can be related to increase in population is a basic finding in India which i am sure you are not aware of. It might not have happend in US. Its very much a fact in India which could be proved statistically.  And when i do say so i am not saying its the only relation. there are many factors to be considered. 

Government never blames the people, its the people who blame the govt, atleast in our part of the world its like that. People know about the inefficiencies of govt. but they also know the importance of it.

What you are saying is all theories, do u have a practical approach about how the govt. could be avoided in the entirety. its a big system, and its noway possible to completely do away with the govt.

1. And how to you propose would the citizen would be able to invest directly in defence. You would propose that a company should be formed. What the primary function of a company. To generate profit and how would that be generate eventually through the profits made from the citizen. so it comes to the same thing. in such a case the company too works as a pimp. And what if the company exploits the defence equipments. This the most stupidest idea. 

2. Ok complete privtisation may reduce the cost on education but what about those who have nothing atall to pay. I am in favour of removing licensing in education but complete privatisation without any government moderation is not possible. There should always be some schools run by government free of cost.

3.  So why would a company provide road to the village, so should every one head to the city so that they have better facilities. Y would company provide electrification to the remote villages, no railway or road access to such remote places would be possible, who would provide health services there. Tell me a solutions to it. Could agriculture be possible if u leave it thinking its not profitable. What you are saying may be right in numerical  sense but this is a world where there are real situations.

very well, So u are an economist in terms of education, those universities have suceeded in making you an economist but has evidently taking away common sense from you. I dont know what they teach you there but let me tell you economics is about people, and an economy runs on people and not money. 

There is no looting here as i said, those who are well off can share some part of their income considering it a charity, 2-3 % is not goin to make anyone poorer and at the end its only they or their offsprings that is going to be benefited.

Taxes aren’t 2-3% first of all(or please tell me where do you live I gotta move in there). Taxes are 25-45% in India.
You work till April-May only for other people, only then you start to earn your for yourself.
Anyways buddy the thing is, we have had discussions with people who are New to Libertarianism, and its going to take a long long discussion, and they are mostly the same arguments over and over and over. This is the precise reason why we created this site.
I would suggest to hang on to the site a bit, subscribe to it, and read a few articles. There are numerous issues you and me disagree upon. We will discuss it on as the topic demands. Currently this discussion here is going HUGE, and it doesn’t seem to be ending any time soon. So why don’t we keep this comment section relevant to the article.
Anyways, do subscribe to the site.

we/governmnet would pay. Why do we need to think it as an expense. After all the whole money that would be injected is going into the market, which means it comes back to us.

Paying the teachers and furniture isn’t really “the market”.
Market means a system of individuals performing voluntary transactions with each other. You can’t define a need such as education, fulfill it forcefully and then claim to help the Market.
Take for example lets say I don’t wanna study? I mean does everyone have to study? We do brainwash every kid to study, but lets say I feel through the cracks, I just wanna sit on my dad’s shop until I am 18 and then I wanna start my own business, why should my dad keep on paying for an educational system which we are never going to use??

Secondly, what about expenses on me, I want investment Capital for my job(the job of being a businessman), but instead of that my dad keeps on paying taxes and duties on infinite items for years to pay for the education of other kids? The truth is you don’t really care what a shopkeeper’s kid wants to do. Democracy is just a matter of being a part of the right group. You are a part of the Educated people, so you want “ALL THE POSSIBLE MONEY TO BE SPENT ON EDUCATION”.
There must be a million+ individuals in India who are shopkeepers who never use anything beyond basic education for their job. So my question is you took massive taxes from them, so technically you took away a large part of their education from them. Can you really feel for the Business community?
@Maya Said:

suppose. 100 rs is expense by the government per student . 50rs we give to the student as monetary benefit to take education, remaining goes into school exp and teacher. School admin / teacher and place where the student spends 50rs generate employment and demand. All this things increases the market which ultimately is benefitial to every one.

That’s totally not true on so many counts, suffers from numerous economics fallacies, and they have been refuted numerous times.
Because according to this logic, if I tax 100% to the people, and redistribute it among people, they will spend it in the Market, it will totally give us massive prosperity boost.

Coz there is no need of privatising them. If ur complaining about quality of education/services in govt. schools/hospitals then go for private school/hospitals who can provide quality with extra cost.

Sure we don’t mind doing that. But can we have the refund of the money which was forced from us in terms of revenues, duties, and taxes to fund these public schools and hospitals?

Oh wait you want me to pay for the education of poor people, and spend less on my own, what morale are you really holding for that?
@Maya

its quiet evident that lack of education could be associated with population.

Yepp then that means world’s third largest country in terms population should be one of the world’s poorest countries??
Why is it that America, world’s third largest country in terms of population is way richer than any other country with that much size and population?
Clearly your theory about population seems to be faulty. Yes I do have people telling me that India has more density of population, than America, well America has a population density of 31 people per sq km and here are the list of countries with population density between 20-40 per sq km.(if you think there is a relationship between population density and prosperity, which is nothing but a correlated propaganda fed by Indian govt)
Colombia, Yeman, South Africa, Latvia, Cameroon, Zimbabwe, USA, Estonia, Liberia, Venezuela, Mozambique, Congo Somalia, Brazil.
Tell me which one of these countries are anywhere near in terms of prosperity to USA??
Brazil has lesser population density than USA, almost comparable Area, still its nowhere near USA in population density.

I am glad that you a new visitor to our site because I wanna welcome you to a world where we aim to untangle every propaganda, every brainwashing which has been done by the society. And by that we don’t mean stupid conspiracy theories, but highly rational stuff.
Take for example isn’t it very convenient for the govt to blame the people for every problem? People (of India) get blamed for not working hard, or for being too corrupt, or reproducing too much. Govt system has no problems its just that the people in those places are corrupt.
To us(Libertarians), wondering on how to remove corruption from Govt offices is like wondering how to avoid scratches while getting raped.
Can there be a benevolent rapist? Well then how can there be a honest politicians? The job of being a govt leader means you need to seize honestly earned property from other people, make people do stuff for the sake of “greater good”, the definition of “greater good” totally depends upon the propaganda they can spawn.

If government keeps its head away from security system and let the citizens invest directly, Not only defence system will become efficient (no terrorism, no rapes and if theres any crime, proper and faster judgements) but also wastage will be reduced to minimal. Let citizens pay for it. Stop government bureaucrats and politicians to act like PIMP as if security and justice is not individual’s right but a prostitute.

2. On providing education.
A. Business men. why? more books- (paper industry), more schools (construction), more educated people ( whole industry).

If government stops Interfering in education system, not only poor will get full education at least prices and most efficient ways, but business will also improve government is the wastage PIMPING education for the ruling class, bureucrats, corrupt corporates, crony capitalists, politicians.

3. on infrastructure, power, security.
A. Business men.

Infrastructure , power security all are economic sectors. Government need top keep away from economic sector to provide competition, choices and efficiency alongwith professionalism. Government is wastage PIMPING on development and progress.

Every thing the government does comes back to the business mess from there it again reaches till the lowest strata of society.

if you dont understand economics. then dont make such posts.

May time provide you some sense. I am an Economist.

then tell me this.

When the government collects taxes, what does it do?
1. Spends on defence
who  is the beneficiary when the government buy defence equipt.
A. business man, the employees of defence firms, their family and indirectly many other people.

2. On providing education.
A. Business men. why? more books- (paper industry), more schools (construction), more educated people ( whole industry).

3. on infrastructure, power, security.
A. Business men. 

Every thing the government does comes back to the business mess from there it again reaches till the lowest strata of society. 

if you dont understand economics. then dont make such posts.

Thats emotional irrational and False.

Charity cannot be FORCED. Let the person decide if he want to give charity or not.
If he do not want, YOU have No right to loot him.
I wonder how can you even dream of demanding hafta/mahina like a goon of Indian films?

Compulsory taxes are nothing but similar loot.

Now since you want to pretend thinking that this loot is not loot but chairty, and if someone DO not want to charity than he must be placed in jails and called a tax-theif, than you are highly pretentious.

Anyways, it was nice talking you and listening your emotional drives!

You can keep commenting whatever you wish, you won’t get an answer back, because your emotional drives which make you force chairty on people doesn’t deserve answer.

is it me who is being emotional or is it you who seems to be frustuated of paying income tax.  No where in my previous comment did i say anything that is offtopic or which you term to be emotional.  i countered all your point with completely valid reasoning.  i have gone thru those post and still my earlier comment is the same the links that you gave me it has the same thing that you said here on which i tried to differ. I would anyway be giving my view on those posts too.

Until you wont read those posts, your comments won’t be accepted.

please put up some effort in understanding the reality rather than keep throwing up of your emotional drive.

So why the government keep up with English medium for higher studies?
Because all the high and mighty, finally want their children to ‘escape to the West’, with a good education from India – at the cost of India’s poor. This vested interest makes this policy go around.

Now maya, I would like you to read previous articles before commenting on the subject, it would save alot of time.
Read this first. Myth of Complete Education.
Then read this Inefficiency of Indian Education System.

Then read this Government is against Educating poor.

After reading those discussions, if you get some point to debate over, please comment here you are cordially invited

suppose.  100 rs is expense by the government per student . 50rs we give to the student as monetary benefit to take education, remaining goes into school exp and teacher. School admin / teacher and place where the student spends 50rs generate employment and demand. All this things increases the market which ultimately is benefitial to every one. 

when the money is employed in the market, nobody pays everyone gains. money remains in the system.