Secondly the writer has cited deaths in Gujarat due to illicit liqour. you just type punjabs youth drugs and alcohol problem on google where both the things are freely available and same thing you type for Gujarat. Punjabs youth is getting destroyed with effects of the same whereas there is virtually no problem of drug addict in Gujarat.
similarly i can go on and on citing various examples on the concerened issues but the truth is some people really want to deviate vactual facts just to express what they beleive in.

[…] Prohibition always kills more people than non-prohibition […]

Regarding government policies, toddy(low alcohol content drink) tapping was banned by the TN govt. a few decades back, and now we have the same govt. producing IMFL(Indian Made Foreign Liquor) to boost the State’s revenues. My hometown in south TN which had a huge population dependent on toddy-tapping lost their source of livelihood. Even the workers who work at our farm have switched to IMFL(which is much costlier and harmful than toddy), and it is hard to get toddy(we call it ‘kallu’ in tamil). It makes me wonder why no big mafia group has erupted to sell toddy underground, considering the fact it would have great demand in places like my hometown where saving a few pennies matters for the survival of most workers’ families.

Next coming to my personal experience, since I believe you know the college where I study, you must be knowing it was like the drug capital of Chennai colleges even a decade back in time. My interactions with a teacher of mine(who was a drug addict himself), suggest that stricter enforcement of rules by college authorities has paid rich dividends. Marijuana addiction is almost non-existent in my college’s hostels.

There still exist 2 to 3 villages I know of which are totally alcohol-free, thanks to social stigma. The public scorn was similar in my village too a few decades back trusting my dad’s(who isn’t a tee-totaller either) words.

Considering these cases, do you consider isolated(when compared with the almost unrestricted access you give to children when you legalize porn, alcohol, drugs etc.) cases of peddlers luring teens a serious issue, when prohibition can cut the practise to a large extent? I don’t deny that there always will exist peddlers to get some children addicted, but certain social practises can decrease chances.
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Renegade & Diva, what do you guys have to say about the increased levels of teen drinking in India; which wasn’t quite so prevalent to the same magnitude, say, a decade and a half years back in time?

And what do you think its responsible for that? Considering there are little changes in laws since then. The alcohol tax has only gone up. The only difference is, people have more money now, and they are more liberal.

Also your argument that it prevents new drinkers, is a waste. I donno how many drug users you know, but I have known MANY. Those who live in drug legalized countries and those who live in drug illegal areas, and only 5-10% of them are actually addicts(none those who live in legalized areas).

About new drinkers, then all the new young generation hears about how bad drugs/porn is for you, and then a guy at the school offers them drug/porn, and the whole fascination about the prohibited thing plays in and people start doing that stuff. Most addicts start young. I had my hands on porn since I was in 7th standard. I BET you didn’t this is why somehow you have this faith on new kids not getting their hands on porn. But by 10th standard kids had porn magazines in their desk in classes. By 11-12th I had porn collection of CDs, magazines, had been caught 3-4 times, but again accumulated it.

In 12th standard I was even offered to be a part of the John-gang(guys who visit prostitutes) but I had some major screw ups until a year ago so I was becoming a sober guy, so I never got into those things, but I saw these kids talking about getting a hooker for Rs 150, and providing access to a kid for Rs 300/-, he had made so much money that he bought a motorbike with that pimping money. That’s how most kids I know lost their virginity.

The problem is dude, it seems you haven’t seen the under world yet. If you have lived in a bubble till now, good for you. But you are so wrong in predicting the behavior of the side you haven’t seen. Chennai is the porn capital(or used to be till the Internet came along) of India.

Alcohol was legal for me to consume since I was 18, but I never consumed any alcohol until I was 23(and that too in America). The legal and illegal doesn’t really make a difference if a guy does not want to do these things. But if someone is neutral then making it legal or illegal, or if someone just want to do it then how much he ruins his life depends upon whether its legal or illegal.

While prohibition won’t stop already addicts from getting access to alcohol, it obviously prevents new drinkers. Just like how having porn available in your nearest provisions shop increases the chances of new porn watchers than having it restricted to the black market. Definitely, the black marketeers can’t advertise the product as well as the provisions shop and porn companies can.
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Comparing America of 1919 and India of 2009 (that’s 90 years) may not be that effective an argument. We are talking of different geography, demographics and culture.

And we are talking about Human and Human Nature, it do change, but it doesn’t change so fast, and it is almost common and comparable in all geography, demographies and culture. Or do you think that Indians are slaves by cultural habits and need to be ruled by government even about what and how much to drink and what not to?

I’ve stayed there for 19 years, and I’ve toured almost all the cities, living through 2 bloody riots. I can only shudder to imagine what would have happened if alcohol was legalized.

Lol. What happens in much more communally fragile land Uttar Pradesh with no or least prohibition on alcohol?
Do you think Gujrat riots were more drastic than any riots of Aligarh or Meerut or Bulandshehar or Muradabad etc? Every second city of UP faces thee dangers of communal violence every now and than. Alcohol neither instigates violence nor disposes off the threats of violence. I lost my parents in one of such violent streaks of UP Aligarh. I know much more about it.

but spare a thought for the interiors. What happens there?

That is what we are saying, spare a thought for the interiors, what happens there? People become easy victims for the poisonous alcohol and dies in number.
After knowing the realities of interiors only I assert that prohibition kills much more.
I personally have visited most interior villages in Varodara region during the project of a Dam I was working at. It’s difficult to stop people, they do drink alcohol this way or that, although they suffer higher prices and risks of unsafe alcohol because of the prohibition.
In cities, however, people can get better branded beverages behind their curtains, completely free of dangers of poison, in interiors of Gujarat, it isn’t possible, people are doomed to face the dangers of accidentally poisoned alcohol.

The price of gold however, is still at an all time high (even after adjustments)

Now that is so weak. Government keeps playing with gold. The import duties are the biggest restriction. At present, as the government increased import duties on gold to highest mark ever, your comment about it makes no sense. By the way, the gold imports were prohibited till 1997.

Comparing America of 1919 and India of 2009 (that’s 90 years) may not be that effective an argument.

I am sorry but I have to ask, do you have a degree in mainstream economics? Sounds like it.
In mainstream economics where the logic do not matter, experiments will be tried for a model based on faulty logic, then the output proves the model wrong, then either the experiment will be asked to be repeated on some other place, time or part in the world, or the model will be slightly modified to accommodate the error and a new improved model will be presented.

I see the same issue here you claim that just because experiment failed doesn’t mean the model failed, and the model might work somewhere else in the world. But what you are not looking is the cold logic behind it.

The logic is, that by banning any commodity, you prohibit all the good people from trading in that commodity. You reduce the supply so you increase the profit for the producers in the commodity, and the market invites more and more producers through the profit motive. The more guns you send behind these producers, that profit increases even more, and this makes those producers acquire even more guns.

In India the producers just opt for more peaceful ways and start to pass on their profits to the police and politicians.

Even if you somehow deal with the problem of dishonest policemen and politicians, and make sure each and every citizen is fully abiding the law, you invite neighboring poor countries to supply that banned commodity in your country.

And these are all logic, you cannot hide behind “it was 1920s in America, this is 2000s in India”.

As I said, the only ban which works in (northern)India is the ban on beef, why? Because most people don’t wanna consume it, not even secretly.

Import Restrictions and Cool Mafia — > We do not have import restrictions on the items you mentioned (well almost none of them have it). The price of gold however, is still at an all time high (even after adjustments).

You just created a straw man’s argument here.
I never said coal mafia has anything to do with import restrictions, most import restrictions have been removed since 1990s so all those issues have been reduced(Mumbai underworld survived on import restrictions, which is fading now).

Coal Mafia works on the lack of property rights on natural resources. Because nobody can fully own a coal mine, or trade in it as they wish, this results in creation of Coal mafia, land mafia, sandlewood mafia etc etc.

About gold being high, then there are almost no restrictions on gold import anymore, the price of gold is no different than in International Market. India is the largest importer of gold. Gold being high is factually incorrect, and was never my point. Gold cannot be consumed. Even in the protectionist era(pre-1990s) if the demand of gold in outer world went up, Indians started selling gold.
There are no gold smugglers in India anymore(because its not illegal). The only people smuggling gold in India are doing money laundering.

The smuggling racket is also, at an all time high. Lack of restrictions hasn’t helped us smash them.

There is a huge difference between COMPLETE lack of restrictions and mere a lack(or a shortage) of restrictions.
I still currently pay a huge customs duty on importing items from outside. Small time smugglers are still there because there is still small profits. Are you saying that we have the same smuggling gangs as there were in Mumbai during 70s-90s??

In America despite of not having an widespread restrictions on alcohol, there is still hooch(its called moonshine) being sold. Why? Because there are many places(few counties) where the liquor is still prohibited, kids under 21 years of age cannot buy liquor legally(so they create a huge market for illegal liquor), the alcohol production still requires huge licensing fees so small independent unlicensed breweries produce liquor for lower cost than licensed legal breweries.

I think the issue is not about prohibition, but of Prohibition IN GUJARAT.

Actually from starting of your post to the end I am noticing one thing, its not about the issue I am pointing out, its not about the fact that prohibition works(or not works) but you have your own agenda here. You are ignoring facts, you are creating straw man’s arguments(points I did not make, but you claim I make).

It is currently the most volatile states in India, viewed communally. I can’t expect people, who haven’t been there, to appreciate the fanaticism and the cold hatred that is simmering in that state. I’ve stayed there for 19 years, and I’ve toured almost all the cities, living through 2 bloody riots. I can only shudder to imagine what would have happened if alcohol was legalized (you might want to research the role of alcohol in Godhra riots as used BY THE GOVT. Check out this documentary FINAL SOLUTION)

First of all, very presumptuous of you that you don’t think non of the authors on this blog has been to Gujarat.
Second presumption you are making is that we haven’t seen riots. Trust me, when I say that, we have pretty good experience with riots.

Let me call Unpretentious Diva(the co-author of this website) on this one, maybe you can explain her that her parents would have been alive only if the UP had prohibition of liquor, because as far as I know, and she knows it pretty well, you don’t have the balls to support the real solution for riots.

Does it make sense to you?
My letter to Dr Piazza of Frontsight institute about Gun Rights in India

FYI I have seen Final Solution. And I know what your reply to “Gun Rights” in India would be, that it will only enable the rioters to kill more effectively, which will only tell me that you have seen too many bollywood movies.

Import Restrictions and Cool Mafia — > We do not have import restrictions on the items you mentioned (well almost none of them have it). The price of gold however, is still at an all time high (even after adjustments). The smuggling racket is also, at an all time high. Lack of restrictions hasn’t helped us smash them. Neither, does it fail to vindicate removing the ban on liqour, but more of that later.
As for the coal in Bihar, I’m quite aware that its consumption is at a minimum simply because of its inferior quality. Most of the coal consumed in India comes from Australia. In any ways, I could not see the connection to drinking herein.
I could go on and on, but to cut to the chase, I think the issue is not about prohibition, but of Prohibition IN GUJARAT. It is currently the most volatile states in India, viewed communally. I can’t expect people, who haven’t been there, to appreciate the fanaticism and the cold hatred that is simmering in that state. I’ve stayed there for 19 years, and I’ve toured almost all the cities, living through 2 bloody riots. I can only shudder to imagine what would have happened if alcohol was legalized (you might want to research the role of alcohol in Godhra riots as used BY THE GOVT. Check out this documentary FINAL SOLUTION). Its all very well for the middle class and the elites to moan about the Govt.’s lack of liberalization policies, but spare a thought for the interiors. What happens there? Currently, its restricted to their hovels, behind curtains, as they can’t come inebriated out on the streets. Remove prohibition, and Gujarat can easily take the crown for being the most unsafe state in India. Considering the demographics therein, I’m glad Modi continues to ensure the stay of Prohibition…
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Is it not human nature to do things which they are not supposed to do?? the traits can be seen even in achild, you ask him/ her not to do something, within minutes you will find him/her doing it.

You are absolutely right!! Prohibition does not help!! What happened to the ban on smoking in public place? I think raising awareness is more important than prohibiting something.!!
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Ok dude if you want to have a general debate over Capitalism with me, please try me on Orkut. Join a community called “Capitalism vs Socialism”(don’t worry there are little or no Socialists there, we proselytized most of them).

This comment section is for this post and I am not going to let you hijack it for your generic tirade against RFL team. So I am clearing up the section for relevant comments.

And no, before you make the claim, your points have nothing to do with this post, they are against the website and the theme in general, but nothing specific against the post.

Well, atleast in china it still working .

\**********

Regarding forest stuff — Thnkx for enlightneing me. I was absolutely wrong in thinking that  they just have sanctuaries named after some famous soccer player or may be a great writers( which ppl treat as owned by provate players). But obviously i am wrong.

There is no such thing such as natural monopoly in a free market. Every monopoly is an artificial monopoly. No one organization/company can become monopolistic provider by natural competition without using government’s aggression.

Nope, Natural monopoly is just an idealistic illusion of free market economy. How hard it would be for highly profitable private player who knows how to use his/her money and power to take control over security? ..I mean common - its quite logical - The person/private body who own or control every
security agency -naturally become “numero uno” for that market and consequently ruler of that place.

And what is your solution?

Solution is preety simple but very difficult to have  100% complinace/execution -
Lets have a control mechanism and restrictions put in place. Why?..bcoz —   control structure ->responsibility — > accountability->efficiency — >Improvemet (cycle continues..)

Once person feels that there are no controls/he/she knows how to work around those control mechanism ( through bribery,favouritism,etc) then its quite easy to break further cycle which leads to efficieny and further improvement.
that’s exactly wht lacks in govt. structure. — > If control structure absent there is nothing u can do about it.

e.g. The cinema theatre shouting example which u given — > lets assume the person who made noise in theatre is relative of theatre owner then obviously theatre owner won’t bother for his/her eviction out of theatre for creating disturbance for other ppl.right?
I mean - it does not matter - wht private property laws says - if u know how to work around them then ( in same example that person cud be - Rich spoiled brat who’s dad is employer of theatre owner :) )

Regarding stuff - where u meant that - lets ppl decide what good or bad for them

I sincerely feel …this is applicable everywhere except in INDIA coz in india u will find ppl of different nature n following .+ mass illiteracy — >?so definitely they need someone to control -> otherwise its just messy situation.

DO u have examples where Forests being owned by private bodies/individuals ( may be in some developed countries :) )

Most of the America is privately owned(US govt owns only 30% of land). No land ownership laws, nothing to prevent an individual from owning 5 acres or 5,000 acres of land.
Because of this you will find USA a lot greener than India or China. USA is so green that India people who come here and live for 4-5 years become sensitive to various elemental allergies because their body stops wasting that much energy for immunities.
Although most of the privately owned land is used for farming, and residential purposes, there are many privately owned forests(by individuals or by organizations).

I guess Govt. all over the world is really stupid and foolish in believing that “they can restrict drugs and medical malpractices by putting restrictions and compliance norms on their usage and in turn WANTS to protect its citizens.

Government is stupid, agreed. But it is true that what they actually try to do is good, but because of the inherent structure of government.
Socialist governments try to provide food and basic necessities to all their citizens, wouldn’t you say that this is exactly why they fail?
Restrictions and rules can also be put in by private citizens on their properties. There is no law to prevent the enjoyment of people in a cinema theater(no law against screaming during a movie), yet most people don’t scream during the movie. If someone does, then they can be thrown out by the movie theater executing his private property rights.

Also,as per your Free Market economy - Let customer decide whether he/she wants to buy or not ( no matter if he/she does not know what’s good or bad for him/her)

You know your post could use some formatting, getting rid of the smileys, and reducing the amount of sarcasm. I just don’t know why on the issue of removal of prohibition people always use sarcasm on me, and its not like it as any merit in it their sarcasm, I have dealt with a common sarcastic comment in my post itself(“Oh so you want people to legalize drugs because otherwise the Mafia gets powerful?”).

Coming to the actual topic, no I don’t know whether an individual knows what is good or bad for him or not, but I do know one thing for sure, that the government does not know what’s good or bad for him.

People know it better because people want good for themselves. Actually I should say only individuals know what their preferences are, and what they want to achieve, and how they want to achieve those ends. People want to become happy. Some people think they can only become happy by drinking alcohol and doing drugs. You may not think that they should be achieving those means, you think people should not be drinking, and living longer, earning more, but what if they don’t want these ends?

I will give my personal example, I used to drink a lot, like every weekend getting wasted. In 2009 from last 5-6 months I have almost completely stopped drinking(1 drink over a month). Why? I realized that drinking alcohol made me gain a lot of weight and made me fat. I didn’t want be fat, after a year of ridicule on being fat, I realized that my enjoyment on being thing is much more than the enjoyment I get from drinking.
I am now more happy by achieving a more satisfying end. If I thought drinking makes me more happy than not drinking, or being thing, then that’s what gives me more enjoyment. That’s what best for me.
Its a sad thing that most people in today’s society do not understand human action. What they understand is the State action. Just because Gandhi supported not drinking, people somehow presume that Gandhi must also support usage of violence to achieve those means.

but who cares about count/monopoly of supplier/seller - after all all customers/citizens wants -is to have quality product/services ..right?

There is no such thing such as natural monopoly in a free market. Every monopoly is an artificial monopoly. No one organization/company can become monopolistic provider by natural competition without using government’s aggression.

But Now it seems all of them all eliminated out of market by private player - “D” who is rulling the market.

Yeah, there is a huge theory behind it and why a single private player of a security force will not be able to take over the market. I am giving this argument like by 99.99% of the statist supporters. But the question is simple, if somehow from A,B,C and D, D has eliminated A,B and C, what are X,Y,Z companies(companies not in defense business) doing?
IF one defense agency is finally defeating A, B and C by using its skills, why would Coca Cola and Pepsi think that this situation is good for them? I mean D could sign a contract with either Pepsi or Coca Cola and the other company will be screwed.

Well yeah, - “Survival of the fittest” as they say to explain the logic of this situation ..and yeah - this private player “D” is so mighty n powerful that he/she becomes ruler of that land

And what is your solution? Oh yeah, to give ALL the power of aggression against other individuals to ONE ORGANIZATION. That sounds pretty brilliant. To prevent your daughter from being raped, rape your daughter yourself. Well at least you could use a condom this way and prevent her from getting diseases and pregnant. Hell that sounds like a better solution to me.