Feb
4
Date rape is the most common form of sex-offense.
When one mentions “sex-offense”, people imagine a frugal, helpless girl under the claws of a brutal rapist who kidnaps little girls from their courtyards, rapes, and murder them and leave their dead body to rot.
Now such crimes although happens, but are very rare, but date rape is a mild form of sex-offence which often goes unnoticed, unmentioned and hence unpunished because it is difficult to show that the victim was not consenting.
Pinky Anand, a Senior Supreme Court lawyer[1] , suggests considering Date Rape as a capital, life or first-degree-felony not mere a less serious sex-offense, but the incidents of rapes she mentions to support her suggestion for stringent punishment for the date-rape accused surely does not represent the typical date-rape incidents.
Date rape is a special case of confusion, which often involves a situation of “he said this / I said that”, “he interpreted this, I mentioned that”, and it all happened.
Date rape is a case, where the victim is well known and often friendly with the accused, where she chooses to enjoy, meet, and party with the accused voluntarily. Now, in some such party, under the affect of smoke and a little light alcohol, if they chose to have some little sexy fun, and after the initial stages of approval, girl said “Stop” and the boy failed to stop fast enough, it becomes a rape, a Date Rape.
Now sometimes, in some cases, the boy is really a brute justifiably accused of rape. Sometimes, it may be just a case of ego clash and the girl may not be the victim as she claims to be. Sometimes, initially the girl was ready for the fun, and she actually enjoyed, but after a little nap, when she actually realized what just happened, she goes to defensive mode and claims a rape, sending the college boy who was her earnest friend to prison for an offense, which we consider as the first-degree-felony.
Pinky Anand, while defending the case of girls against the real “sex-predators” ignored such innocuous sex-offenders. While discussing the issue of “Date Rape” she actually never discussed any incident of “Date Rape” although she mentioned the appalling rape case of Mumbai, where a police constable Sushil More raped a young girl. Now that surely was not a Date Rape.
Date Rape as the name suggests is the incidence of sex, at a pre-decided voluntary “date” where the girl actually is not ready for sex. Such cases often happen to be in the groups of college students and often they do not involve any person with any criminal record as a sex-offender, nor a person who is potential future criminal or offender. 
So how logical it is to consider a Date-Rape as a first-degree-felony.
Mostly it may not be the case of any crime but just of confusion or a situation of indecision on the part of boy and girl both and after the casual sex happened, girl decided she was against it.
Now can we compare such cases with a case of a police constable forcibly raping an innocent girl who initially came to police constable for some help that she deserved and demanded?
Often rigid laws ignore the difference between situation and degree of supposed crime involved. We cannot treat every case with same tag of rule.
While discussing the issue of “age of consent” we concluded that law should not be dogmatized and fixed, it should remain flexible and every case needs proper individual study.[2]
Date Rape also involves a more important issue of drugs, which we call as “Date Rape Drugs”.
Date Rape Drugs are those sedatives, tranquilizers or hallucinogenic drugs, which makes it harder to think clearly and evaluate a potentially dangerous situation for a person.
Furthermore, only criminals do not use the Date Rape Drugs, they are used for various legal purposes, that is, we cannot assume government and police to waste the tax-payers money to stop drug usage anyhow, also, banning drugs itself is wastage.
We do know that prosecuting drug dealers does not solve the drug problems.[3]
Even alcohol is considered a Date Rape Drug.
Now the question is, if a girl decides to drink alcohol herself, and then she engages in a casual sex-activity herself, will it be termed as a rape?
We cannot suggest women and girls to not to go parties, and pubs and dance clubs, or to go to hotels to meet their friends. Can we force youth not to involve in love relations? Can we force girls not to go on dates? Can we suggest women to not to drink alcohol? No feminist will agree to it, nor is it logical.[4]
The only solution is the flexibility of law and the required study of each case with proper situational perspective. We cannot treat every rape case as a first-degree-felony.
More than that, we need to understand that sex is not a crime in itself.
On moral grounds, every one is free for her pursuit of pleasure and happiness, and if it involves sex, there is certainly no moral offense.
I understand that rape in any case is a heinous crime, yet the right way is to treat every other case as a special, looking for each and every situational evidence and justifying that the accused was really offensive, and not merely a victim of confusions and indecision. Furthermore, female should feel the responsibility for her own safety and security. 
By exhorting government and legal authorities to treat rape accused equally and stringently, although feminists succeeds in proving that the state and government favours them more than the males, but it solves nothing. On the other hand, it propagates that female herself has no role in securing her own safety that she is helpless and unable to care for her own life and thus she need to be dependent on government, law and society, which again creates a new set of slavery for the female.
Rather the need is females should understand their own responsibility and capacity to safeguard their independence.
When Dame Helen Mirren[5] suggested that date rape cases should not directly go to courts, rather they should be discussed between the two parties involved, and only in a situation of a proper indecision after discussion they may be forward to criminal courts, she was slammed and vilified, yet, she was right and her suggestion is more helpful to create a viable youth friendly, crime-free environment.
The case of rape by the police constable shows that government or law is actually helpless and unable to protect anyone. The need is the awareness of the woman and the awakening of her sense of self.
By demanding stringent laws against any sort of sex-offence like Supreme Court Lawyer Pinky Anand[1] suggested, feminist may create some more unjustified cases and further anomaly on the name of equality of sex while demanding favors by government for unequal treatment, but it will certainly not solve the problem of female security nor it will bring upon any justice to them.
- Pinky Anand a Senior Supreme Court Lawyer, Times of India [↩] [↩]
- Age Of Consent, Reason For Liberty [↩]
- Drugs: Legal or Illegal, Reason For Liberty [↩]
- an IHM, Blog [↩]
- Mirren slammed for date-rape comment, TOI [↩]
Related Posts
1 views47 Responses to “Issue of Date Rape”
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Galeo Rhinus Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 5:13 amMakes sense.
In fact stricter punishments for date rape dilute the real crime of rape.
On a related subject - while choosing to have sex is unquestionably a woman’s choice - nature has balanced the consequences with the choice…
…however, with modern contraception - this choice-consequence balance has shifted…
…while feminists view this new found freedom a source of power - it makes women potentially more vulnerable than poweful… don’t you think?
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 5:21 amI don’t think so. Because i do not believe in casual sex.
For me sex is the most worthy expression of love. And love is Selfish attitude. I can love only that person whom I find worthy enough to be loved, I do not waste my love.
Contraceptives help a woman to decide whether she go for pregnancy or not. Anyways Abortion at right time is also a power for Human.
As we say, its not the gun which is punishable, the man holding the gun should be punished if he hurts or murders someone without cause.
Galeo Rhinus Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 6:09 amI certainly respect that - but don’t you think that the actions of some women, who might not necessarily share your views, would be altered by easy contraception?
In addition, I was referring to the other side of the argument… consider how the mere existence of easy contraception might make some men revise their views on casual sex… (and I share your view on this subject as well)
…which might make some women more vulnerable… especially in some date situations that are indeed fall in the gray areas… no?
I am not taking a moral position here - but suggesting that the increasing date rapes might find their causality in the change in the attitude of men… as more men begin to view casual sex more acceptable, because of this shift in balance…
…just thinking aloud here…
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 6:36 amIf you meant that, then your question/thinking is wrong.
It should be like this, “the advent of contraceptive is making men weaker and confused, as now their view about sex is more casual”.
Female is not an enemy of male.
Female is not vulnerable because of her sexuality, nor she is vulnerable because there are physically strong men who can use her as a sex toy. She is vulnerable because she assumes herself vulnerable. How does it matter if the girl is self-sufficient to secure her safety?
How does it matter if there are a single looter in front of you or say 4 goons are ready to loot you?
if you have gun in your hand, you can secure your safety even in a mob attack because no one want to die, and who will opt to die first?
Barbarindian Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 6:47 amHow do you objectively define which case is a date rape? What is a date?
Mind you, when the case hits the court, they have no way of reliably knowing the circumstances. Therefore the premise of contractually resolving specific cases of date rape goes out the door since you need to litigate to determine whether it was a case of date rape in the first place. Needless to say the perp would like it to be tried as a date rate while the victim would prefer it treated like a regular case.
About the mob attack, I do agree I would rather have a gun, but trust me on this - I would not bet on the mob not attacking me anyway. The problem is, you can be as rational as you like, you can’t control the others.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 6:56 amOnly to solve that problem, Dame Helen Mirren suggested the cases of date rape complains to be discussed between two parties outside the court first.
Let them resolve first if there actually was any rape or just a confused state.
RAPE is a crime, attaching rape with every sexual offense is foolishness.
A similar foolishness is the term Marital Rape.
How can one say that a husband insisting for sex is as criminal as a pedophile raping a girl of age 12?
if a woman thinks she is been harassed by her husband, she should move away take the divorce and get the hell outta useless relation.
Mostly women accuses of marital rapes to enforce blackmails and irrational alimony as a result of divorce.
What about this, a girl called a rich guy intentionally, got naked and started shouting rape rape? It is a date rape.
Now either the guy should pay the girl whatever she demands, or he is gonna face court, and as government and laws and court are female friendly and anti-male, male is sure going to jail too, or he will bribe police, judges lawyers etc… all wastage of money, better is to pay the girl whatever she demands. That is the win of girl.
If you read the article of Pinky Anand, or any collectivist feminist persay, you will see that they do not agree for medical evidences too
Pinky says
Now what does that mean? if a girl says rape, it is rape, no matters medical report shows there was NO RAPE.
Any girl can make you kneel on your knees baby, otherwise she will force you to go to jail.
By the way, I am not a collectivist feminist, that does NOT MEAN I am not feminist at all, I am I-feminist.
Galeo Rhinus Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 7:23 amDiva #4
I didn’t put it like that - but yes that was the point :-)
Of course not…
Not sure where that came from…I certainly did not imply that!
The word “vulnerable” is perhaps overused or misused… the point was that when it comes to shades of gray - a situation where neither is the woman “vulnerable” nor is the man a “goon” is what I was referring to…
Barbarindian Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 7:44 amRAPE is a crime, attaching rape with every sexual offense is foolishness.
Suppose one says: “Grievous intentional physical injury is a crime. Attaching this to every beating is foolishness.”
You are making the presumption that the victim is willing to admit a confused state of mind. The fact that she has made a charge necessarily means one of the following:
a) She is making a false complain for whatever reason
b) There really was a crime committed
The law can not make the call for the victim. There must be litigation. The husband maritally raping his wife vs. 12 year old assaulted makes no difference in front of the badly sculpted statue with the taraju in its hand. The only difference is in sentencing.
If you want to exclude marital rape, you must exclude all cases where a man is deemed to be in a legal marriage with the woman involved. There is simply no way of creating a perfect system - it is a matter of whether you want to err on the side of caution for the woman involved or the man.
renegade_division Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 10:39 amWell according to me, date rape is a rape.
In fact things are just too easy for guys in terms of a relationship. Rather than having massive Social stigma attached with being involved in a physical relationship, I would prefer to have a legal protection given to the woman.
In fact if woman feels more secure and powerful, that just increases the chances for guys to get laid. More casual sex. I have studied numerous cases in American Criminal law on what constitutes as sex, as it turns out the law greatly unempowers the men in bed, one single no from her side, and you better double check because in court ignoring it will count against you, which is quite beneficial considering the traditional power balance is greatly tilted towards men.
If women feel equally powerful on a date, while heavy petting, during an intercourse, that’s just going to help men in long run in a traditional society like India.
I grew up in an Indian environment, I have been involved with Indian woman, and my conclusion was, that you just have to proceed, forget the constant ‘no’, you have to cross through that. I mean that’s how things went on. Once you cross the barrier once, there are no more “no”.
Although I gotta admit feminist are running lose in America, but there is a great need of feminist empowerment in India.
Stricter or more clearly defined laws regarding rape and all form of sexual crimes will do to sexual revolution of woman what property rights did to agriculture,civilization and productivity.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:11 amWho said I want to exclude marital rape as rape? What I surely want is proper evidence that it was rape, not just a shout that “he raped me” makes it a rape.
Now it is true that You cannot expect perfect system. But who want a system?
Actually there should be no system tackling the cases of rape on same plane. Every case should be discussed thoroughly with afresh and anew site on the situations of the incidence.
it is same as the case of age of consent http://www.reasonforliberty.com/reason/age-of-consent-child-molestation-and-legal-system.html
You/we cannot expect any dogmatic law on such cases. We need to study each and every case properly according to the situations involved.
Now the question occurs how is it possible under state law? How to ensure proper justice under state law where neither the courts are enough nor the judges and neither the lawyers?
I suggested prospects of Private Judiciary System for that. http://www.reasonforliberty.com/current-affairs/the-prospects-of-private-judicial-system.html
I know even that is not a perfect system, yet it much better and more open than the dogmatic state law system and obviously much more efficient.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:28 amNo action is rape until proven beyond doubts that yes it is/was a rape.
No accused is victim until proven, but in cases of dogmatic state rule of sexual offense, you will seldom get a chance to show your innocence, if the girl says you are a rapist, you become a rapist.
I know you studied Rothbard’s books too and how and why he supported Copywrite law.
Let’s discuss America and american date-rape cases too.
Rich Gorman who is a former Florida State University student who is serving a five-year prison sentence for a “rape” that involved a 5- to 15-second of sex act.
When the girl shouted “stop” he stopped and asked “What’s wrong?”
Now the question is, Should a young man like Gorman, for example, be treated the same way as Alejandro Avila, who kidnapped and murdered 5-year-old Samantha Runnion?
Gorman has been sentenced seven years harsh jail. Not only that, after coming out of jail, he will be Marked Rapist, marked criminal for always, for his whole life.
he won’t get proper job, he may not get right to vote and every other thing a criminal suffers. And for what? because he decided to be on a date?
Obviously, there is difference between Gorman and Alejandro, yet, under current Florida law - and under similar laws in other states, Gorman is treated largely the same as those who brutalize children.
The problem is, now if a Gorman goes on date, and anyhow gets involve in sex with the girl, and again if the girl says stop, he may stop, but he will fear whether the girl will sent him to jail? So what is better? may be he chose to kill the girl and try to hide the crime. Afterall even if he won’t do that, his life can surely be ruined as Gorman’s life has been ruined.
Nimmy Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:29 am“…yet the right way is to treat every other case as a special, looking for each and every situational evidence and justifying that the accused was really offensive, and not merely a victim of confusions and indecision. Furthermore, female should feel the responsibility for her own safety and security”
I agree..The point is in dealing with each cases on its own.But isn’t the court doing the same? Are all rapists hanged to death here?
No one deserves to be raped. Being in a man’s house or car does not mean that a woman has agreed to have sex with him.Drinking or dressing in a sexually appealing way are not invitations for sex,is it?
I am of opinion that women should learn self defense lessons,as to be used to anybody,anytime..But i cannot imagine carrying a pepper spary or gun with me 24/7 for fear of being raped or molested..Isn’t it a better idea to ask men to have self control and teach them some lessons of respect.Education and awareness programs, will encouraging men to take increased responsibility for their behavior.Not all men rape,WHY? If majority can act decent,the minority too can,they just need to be tamed.Before that women should get rid of mentality of ‘I deserved it’..
In case of date rape,well we can have evidence by not washing and not changin clothes..But what about marital rape?We have easy laws for women bcoz she is the vulnerable one and she has difficulties collecting evidences,and she has less access to power sources,whereas a man can easily bride or influence or even intimidate the authority concerned.So the law enables women to have easy access to justice..Yes,many misuse it.Make ammendments for taking care of that aspect and punish such liar women..Instead,blaming the whole system is dumb..
I find your logic little confused and confusing…There are false cases of every law..But does that mean that the law itself shold be changed or abolished?
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:31 amBarbarindian said
yes it is foolishness. Let me tell you about UK, if some how police comes to know that you spanked your own kid a little, you will be in jail.
Let’s say your neighbor sees you shouting at your son, if he complains to police, you will be in jail.
Now how proper it is to consider beating a person brutally, and beating your own son because he was taking drugs and stealing his mothers gold jewelery to sell and buy some more drugs equally?
But the sentence for both beating is same.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:36 amAnd you think I am an alien? What if i show you more than a dozen case where girls women misused such laws because state law never heeds a case as a unique case?
What if I give you an example of a single girl from UP who married 15 times within 2 years and got divorced with big amount of cash just on the account of threats and blackmails over rape and dowry demand?
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:41 amCapitol punishment are extremely rare.
And yes all accused are sentences similarly.
Lol, why is she vulnerable? why cannot she bribe police? your logic is faulty. In fact she can bribe much better than a man can bribe, she can bribe sexually too.
The girl of UP i was talking about had proper illegitimate connections with some police constables too.
Nimmy, woman is never vulnerable, you may force-feed her to feel that yes she is vulnerable. Until she will not throw away this fake vulnerability, and will not become strong within herself, No law can help her.
Why do not you understand that merely 4% actual and justified rape victims actually comes to court to get any justice? it is not because law is insufficient, or by making law more drastic more unhealthy, women will start coming to court. It is because women is made to feel vulnerable, need is to remove that tag of vulnerability. But by providing unequal rules, we are not establishing that women are STRONG we are establishing that women are vulnerable, and when we are proving that they are vulnerable, they will surely keep enjoying the vulnerabilities, the imaginative one.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:48 amEven religious institutes do the same like feminist do.
Feminists, and religious institutes both says women are vulnerable, they need protection, and by saying these ridiculous things, they enslaves womanhood further.
The need is to establish that WOMAN IS NOT VULNERABLE. SHE IS ABLE TO FIGHT AS LAKSHMI BAI AND FOR HERELF AS SAROJINI NAIDU.
She can even kill her attacker if she is attacked. provide her guns for self-defense rather than useless laws.
Nimmy Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:48 amI find the statement very offensive.Sorry to say,i find your logic as like an ostrich’s approach where one is not aware of how things are around..Women in India are not as progressive or as degraded to bribe by offering sex,as to get justice.Even prostitutes have a class on their own and i won’t think of them as offering sex to groceryman to get extra tomotoes..I have no idea of which part of the world you are sitting now,but please understand that women are inferior,are oppressed,are abused and vulnerable in INDIA and that is what i am talking about.Maybe your skwed logic fits to someother country,but i hope and i am very sure that women haven’t degraded to that level..
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:51 amWhy offensive?
I am talking the truth, if I go on searching for the news article about the incidence, i can prove it too. That girl had a proper gang in which some police constables were also involved.
And she was of your country, and My state Uttar Pradesh.
I can provide you many other cases from Punjab, Maharashtra Gujrat, everywhere.
Lol there is a sex racket in delhi which is being maintained by a girl named Chand, who herself had used the dowry and rape laws many time improperly, and now she hold some 300-400 girls under her and engages them in prostitution and that is not forced prostitution, the girls in that racket have opted voluntary to engage in prostitution.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 12:04 pmIPC-498a
Cognizable - The accused can be arrested and jailed without warrant or investigation
Non-Bailable - The accused must appear in the court to request bail
Non-Compoundable - The complaint cannot be withdrawn by the petitioner
The accused, on a woman’s one complaint, are considered guilty until proven innocent, and the burden is on the accused to prove their innocence in the courts. It is even more torturous that old ailing parents too are arrested prior to investigation. Is this not violation of Human Rights of Indian citizen?
When an FIR (First Information Report) under IPC section 498A (anti-dowry law) is registered by a woman, the accused - the husband and his old parents, brothers, sisters, relatives - are arrested and jailed without investigation.
So when Anti-Dowry law can be such, what about anti-marital-rape law?
Here’s IBNlive report on misusage of dowry law
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/tortured-hubbies-victims-of-498a/27446-3.html
Nimmy Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 12:09 pmGargi,I am not saying that all women in this world are saints or epitomes of love and peace..As like men,there are many many evil women out there,but since our societies have been churned out women to be socially conditioned to be submissive(being submissive is good until and unless it is taken for granted) and she is made to think that she deserved getting abused once in a while..I am not refutting the case you are talking about,we can find such in plenty.But does that constitute the majority of women population..How many among us are even properly educated? How many of us have seen a world outside one’s village or town? How many of us are bold enough to talk to a strange policeman as to complaint our case? Until and unless women enable themselves to stanf for themselves,laws will help them or support them.Law is not made by a single person,a group does it and i find it odd that the whole team is biased towards women.They made it more easy for women bcoz our soceity is so.Maybe this will not work in a different culture and society.Just bcoz there was a Sarojini Naidu or Rani Lashmi Bhai in a population of millions,it doesn’t make a slight difference,except for inspiration.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 12:33 pmEducation does not make a woman brave or self-efficient.
I know many well-educated real rape victims, and I know many uneducated women living much stronger and responsible life an educated woman may ever live.
Education has nothing to do with the ability to stand against exploitation. And obviously irresponsible laws can never help a woman.
Only wrong women uses such laws to harass innocent people.
There have been some pedophile rapes by women, in Mumbai Maharstra, a woman kidnapped a boy of age 14 years and kept her in her home for 1 month enjoying all sort of sexual acts she could imagine. Later on she was caught and the boy was rescued, she was freed after one month as even that kid didnot accused her, he wanted to live with her forever. Indian law does not recognize woman as a potential rapist.
No matters she may ruin an **** by using carrots. have you ever wondered whether a female can rape another female or men?
yes she can, many do, In a university in M.P, three students living in girls hostel caused a sex-death of a VCD supplier, they imprisoned him in their hostel room during the general vacations when almost nobody was there in hostel premises. He died after routine sexual tortures.
Things do happen in India too, people are just ostrich or they tend to be so.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 12:35 pmAnd anyways, I am not anti-feminst, I am anti-government, I am anti collective sense of feminism.
Let the justice prevail with proper discussion and investigation about every rape case properly, including marital rape accuses too.
I am sure private judiciary system will provide much efficient and justified solutions to such cases.
And, atleast let no state law make an accused to be a criminal even before proving anything.
In fact such laws doesn’t help women, more so, women suffers from such laws. Dowry law? Women, relatives, mother sisters every body will go to jail if the wife of a man complains under anti-dowry law.
Accuse a man of a false rape, and his whole family will suffer which includes women of that house too.
it is not healthy situation.
Mayuresh Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 1:07 pmRather the need is females should understand their own responsibility and capacity to safeguard their independence.
…………….
Is it assumed that rape is what males do to females?
We live within the assumptions. Trust is also an assumption.
I do not believe in casual sex. For me sex is the most worthy expression of love. And love is Selfish attitude. I can love only that person whom I find worthy enough to be loved, I do not waste my love.
……………..
These are Ayn Rand words. And since you are Ayn Rand reader, selfishness is the most natural thing for you. For a person who does not understand English, it may not be so.
What exactly is law meant for?
Is law there to stop humans from “doing what comes natural”?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexuality#Coercive_sex
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological_theories_of_rape#Rape_as_an_adaptation_among_animals
But what is “natural”? We being part of nature and civilization at the same time we cannot distinguish between what is natural and what is not.
All our thinking is heteronomous, imposed on us.
There are no meanings when the newborn is given birth. Our ideas are within the box, where the meanings are created; no one can go out of this box. Rape, crime, law are all meanings.
Meanings were necessary for humans to socialize and form societies. Within this context, these problems could be solved with mutual agreements. Mutual agreements do not mean mutual selfishness, but mutual need to socialize and keep socializing in the long run.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 1:09 pmMutual benefit certainly means SELFISHNESS, The Rational Selfishness.
There is no action in human life which he can take selflessly, he is always selfish until he lives.
Once he is dead, he is not selfish anymore, he lost his SELF.
One more thing I must say, Its not Ayn Rand who was first to say that Selfishness is Virtue.
It was Shankaracharya who mentioned Ahem Brahma Asi. The philosophy of Virtue of Selfishness is much more Indian than western, And I am a fan of Vedic philosophies. Wanna debate? (make your own platform and invite me to debate. Its neither the platform nor the post for that issue.
\
About your doubts of Artificial Vs Natural, get a proper hold of that here http://www.reasonforliberty.com/reason/artificial-vs-natural.html
and your comment certainly does not hold any relation with the post.
Mayuresh Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 1:24 pmBut with the view that selfishness is at the center of all actions (love, sex, child bearing and development, his/her education etc.), and competition is the basic thing for which humans socialize, and not co-operation; we would have never been able to create meanings.
Nimmy Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 1:39 pmYes women can rape men,yesteray’s newspaper has a news on three women abducting and raping a man..But again,tell me what is the percentage difference betwen men raping women and women raping men?The answer speaks volume on its own.
Yes,education isn’t a benchmark,as in our antion Graduates and postgradutaes undergo domestic abuse and rapes..but there lies my point..If education can bring any little empowerment and sense,and if this is the condition of educated women,what is to be expected out of uneducated women who have never seen a world outside their village?
So tell me what your point is..Are you telling me that a woman who gets beaten by husband or MIL or is on the verge of getting burned to death by a ‘stove-burn’ ,should go to police stattion,file an FIR,go back home,eait for constables to come for inquest,file an FIR,take it to court,wait for nth session (maybe days,maybe months,maybe years) for the judge to pass a verdict on whether there was any real abuse or not…Excuse me,i find it funny and i don’t know how to reply..
So what,if they are wrong,let them be convicted,no matter if they are men or women
Agreed,but see around what is happening to young men arrested in the name of suspicion and their biodata including their famlies,with photos are published in national dalies and are branded anti-nationals and terrorists..Is that right?NO, but it happens as we indians are bloody too hypocritical..
Finally,this is not about feminism,but about jsutice and fairness…
Good day
please delete my last comment(same words) but it not readable without blockquote..
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 1:49 pmit is your lack of understanding of RATIONAL SELFISHNESS. without rational selfishness, neither language, nor co-operation, nor meaning nor anything else was possible.
it is in rational selfish interest of human to be socialized and free. Civilization is the freedom of Man from Men. Civilization is a selfish process.
Animals live in heard and groups because of their RATIONAL SELFISHNESS, they do not possess rational faculty to guide them towards individual freedom, they are bound to live in heard and groups for their selfish profit safety cause, every animal in a heard gains selfish pleasure, security and profits by being in the group. it is all selfish, every biological process stand on selfishness. Sense of self, is life. Hit a dog, it will run away, trying to save itself, Dog is selfish, he has sense of self. You are missing sense of self, you are loosing life.
Liberty Speaks Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 8:21 pmLaws that we have today come forth from egalitarian conception of society. Laws are thus generally designed to balance the so called natural inequalities that exist in society to suit the egalitarian concept of justice. Now if we remove equality as the base value and replace it with freedom interpretation of many laws will change in itself. Now in a rape case the main question of contention would become how was the freedom of consent of women violated. the cases where the girl willingly lowered her judgement capacity and allowed intercourse to happen at a different/ diluted level of consciosness, claiming it to be a rape when she regains consciousness is questionable. At the same time it has to be examined if the girl took the drug/ alcohol willingly or was forcefully or covertly administerd. If so then it would come in the purview of rape. Additionally all such cases will come under category of deliberate crime. Rape may be instinctual, man may not have had any intention of doing it but goes about doing it in the rage of passion. It is a crime indeed but passion crime is far less malicious than crime of intent wherein the whole episode was well planned and executed. Such distinction again is absent in present law.
the post also brings forth how laws in itself becomes a perpetuator and sustainer of such inequality in society. Between Men and women, there exist no inexplicable inequality except strenght. Strength can be definitely used as a mode of leverage to violate the freedom of consent. Now had freedom and induvidualism been the base value of these so called feminist, they would have fought for means to aid them protect this freedom. They would have advocated for martial art training for women, a technique that very effectively equates strenght. Other Means would be possession of decapcitating agents like pepper sprays etc. They may also fight for the right to possess fire arm, it too can act as a great leveller.
there is an age old saying prevention is better than cure, now all these are means for prevention. Laws can be there now to address only the circumstances where woman/man was unable to prevent this violation from happening at the first place.
Interpretation of laws must be circumstantial, and not blanket…but for all this the egalitarian ghost has to exist our collective consciousness
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:28 pmTrue, but saying “we ALL indians are hypocrite” is wrong.
I am Indian so you are, I am not hypocrite, I won’t let you be hypocrite, you should be a Rani Lakshmi Bai, a Sarojini Naidu, If you become a epitome of braveness and truth, you promote freedom for million more girls around you. That is the right way of prevailing justice, by providing examples of Individual strength, by making charities and cases of Pity, you will never be able to help any woman in distress, by promoting state laws, you will ruin womanhood.
We are Indians and we are Not Hypocrite.
About UAPA law, we criticized it here http://www.reasonforliberty.com/current-affairs/india-heading-towards-state-terrorism.html
If you check our category of Terrorism, you will get some real sparkling facts and theories behind all this hype of terrorism.
I suggest check it out and browse, you may not agree with certain points, but you will find every point raised properly pertinent.
http://www.reasonforliberty.com/category/terrorism
About Judicial System, I am saying again, Justice is never possible under dogmatic hypocrite, unequal state laws.
Private judiciary process will certainly be much better option
http://www.reasonforliberty.com/current-affairs/the-prospects-of-private-judicial-system.html
Mayuresh Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:41 pmRand was an end in herself. And she is no more……
You can change your statement to “every man is an end in himself, but his thoughts remain”. If one is going to leave some non-material thing behind, could he be called selfish? No, for sure.
“Absolute liberty is impossible” because we are bound by nature, we are part of nature. So if one says “Give me liberty or give me death”, he won’t be getting either of the things. And will land into unhappiness.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 4th, 2009 at 11:46 pmYou do not understand the meaning of LIBERTY. Liberty is not going against nature, Liberty is freedom to use the nature for rational selfish beneficial purpose.
I entertained your wrong idiotic ideas this time, i won’t do it again, you are disturbing my readers who have subscribed for this post, they are intimidated by any of your impertinent and not-related-to-this=post comment.
get a grip, you make any other comment not related to the post, i will delete it. i deleted previous two.
renegade_division Says:
February 5th, 2009 at 12:41 am@Mayuresh Said:
Dude I don’t get it, why do you hang around this website, you never agree with anything on this website, but you never defend an opposing point either, its like you just like to oppose things, “rebel without a cause”!
Take for example there is no point in talking about “absolute liberty is impossible” in this thread, there is no relation. Why don’t you simply come to the point what is it you disagree with Libertarian platform.
About absolute Liberty being impossible, is that a call for marginal tyranny to be introduced in our platform? I mean lets presume absolute Liberty is impossible, are we anywhere near it? Are we living in a near-absolute Libertarian society? Are you saying that we are the maximum free we can be, and being more free is impossible? I mean seriously what is your point?
“Hey guys I think we achieved enough Liberty, I don’t think so you can push any more further, because absolute Liberty is impossible”.
OR
“Hey guys since Absolute Liberty is impossible, you must try for Absolute Tyranny”
OR
“Hey guys absolute Liberty is impossible, if you do not support that, then whatever you support that that is impossible”.
Sagar Says:
February 5th, 2009 at 4:58 pmGood one, kinda debate also.
According to me date rape cannot be considered for first degree felony as it is a complex situation involving a lot of controversies. I think flexibility of law is necessary in this situation. A thorough understanding of case is required to take a decision. But the most important thing is that a female should feel the responsibility for her own safety and security to avoid such kind of situation.
Giuseppe Says:
February 9th, 2009 at 5:57 amTo solidify the law in this case, innocent until proven guilty should be held to a reasonable standard. That is, the DA should have to demonstrate that the girl had no intent to engage in sexual activity prior to going out on the date, and that there was nothing which occurred during the date which could suggest otherwise.
Even so, this is a ridiculously complicated issue that leaves no simple solution. It’s clearly not fair that Mr. Frat Boy ends up in jail for having consensual sex that Ms. Sorority Girl changed her mind about the next day; but clearly there’s numerous real instances of this crime as well.
sunny Says:
February 10th, 2009 at 11:05 pmI actually read your entire post. I was convinced, with the spurge things can go wrong. I am not convinced, with the fact that weather it is rape or not, is decided on later stage, after gaining senses or feeling guilt of action.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 11th, 2009 at 6:53 amBut that happens many a times, such cases have been discovered many a times, even completely false cases have also been discovered.
sunny Says:
February 12th, 2009 at 6:22 amBut that happens many a times, such cases have been discovered many a times, even completely false cases have also been discovered.
Things happen either way, when we say we trust our friends, we should be confident to this level?
Its ones determination, or judgment when he/she decides how, much be-friend,with the person.
And to a simple step, if you cannot control your/or friends charging on you, at that situation, I would say you have lost control over everything (may be even under influence of drug/alcohol etc.).
-sunny
GP Says:
February 12th, 2009 at 5:17 pm@Unpretentious
No action is rape until proven beyond doubts that yes it is/was a rape.
No accused is victim until proven, but in cases of dogmatic state rule of sexual offense, you will seldom get a chance to show your innocence, if the girl says you are a rapist, you become a rapist.
<<<<That’s true. >>>>>>>>
I must say, Its not Ayn Rand who was first to say that Selfishness is Virtue.
It was Shankaracharya who mentioned Ahem Brahma Asi.
<<<<<Your interpretation of “Aham Brahmasmi” as “selfishness is virtue” is absolutely incorrect.That statement has very deep meaning and read “Ajativada” if you want to fully understand it.
Please try avoiding quoting such statements of his holiness Adi Shankaracharya in your post if you don’t fully comprehend them coz you are simply ruining its essence in date rape post.>>>
@Writer/all commentators
I have two questions for you.
1)How a married woman can PREVENT a marital rape?
2)In case she couldn’t prevent marital rape..Is it possible for her to LEGALLY PROVE that she was raped by her husband?( I think its not.)
I think its not possible to prevent or prove it in court but I wud like to know if you think otherwise.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 12th, 2009 at 5:37 pm@ GP, trust me you will never understand any meaning of Shankaracharya’s statement until you wont understand the right meaning of Virtue of Slefishness.
I am sorry all your readings have provided you lesser good. But anyways i am happy atleast you tried.
Please avoid suggesting me what should I read, I am already a Vedic Schollar. you can have any sort of debate over any Vedic atheistic literature Nyaya, Samkhya, Mimaamsa, Advaita, Dvaita Taittreya Vednata, or you may pull up the major scriptures right any of them Rig, Sam, Yajur Arthav. but not here.
Here you need to keep alignment with the post for which you are commenting.
Enjoy!
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 12th, 2009 at 9:34 pm@ GP
As i said earlier, until you wont read and understand Virtue of Selfishness, your all reading is incomplete.
Stick with topic!
GP Says:
February 13th, 2009 at 10:53 amNever Mind!..Let’s stick to the topic.
Honestly, I think “Marital Rape” is very complicated thing even to admitt in court of law that there is thing called “Marital Rape” coz its very difficult to prove in court that husband had intercourse with her wife without her consent, even the matching medical evidences(***** stains from clothes,genitals of victim) as well as circumstantial evidences are completely inconclusive in court because they are husband and wife and not strangers to each other and its extremely unlikely for judges to accept that its case of rape and not just consesual sex between husband and wife.
2) When you say that - “Woman shouldn’t consider herself weak and she was weak and opressed just bcoz she think so”
— > I would like to say that - as a woman its not always possible to be strong not atleast physically!
— > and exactly for the same reason - she can’t protect herself from — > being raped by her husband
Now Regarding your point of about mental toughness
— > I would say there are several ways and means to break women no — > matter how much mentally though they are which I am sure you must knowing too!
(Please Note : I am not justifying or supporting these acts. )
So my points are -
1)There is no hard and fast rule on - how to prevent a Marital rape Its all up to that person , how he/she chooses his/her life partner and the way they treat themselves.
2) In court its extremely difficult to prove it
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 13th, 2009 at 11:17 amif a woman claims she was raped, current laws suggest that the accused should be arrested, and it is the burden of accused to prove that there was no rape and he is innocent, and that is as difficult as proving that there happened a rape, that is, if woman claims, the man is destined to be punished No excuse for him.
Even men can not remain physically strong all time so don’t go over that. I mean what the hell! if you wanna mention about pregnancy, woman is strong enough to deny and or abort the child. it is her will! About other things. No living being of whatever gender can remain physically strong at all times.
GP Says:
February 13th, 2009 at 6:48 pmif a woman claims she was raped, current laws suggest that the accused should be arrested, and it is the burden of accused to prove that there was no rape and he is innocent, and that is as difficult as proving that there happened a rape, that is, if woman claims, the man is destined to be punished No excuse for him.
==> I see what you mean here. In fact article 498A is heavily misused by women.
Even men can not remain physically strong all time so don’t go over that. I mean what the hell! if you wanna mention about pregnancy, woman is strong enough to deny and or abort the child. it is her will! About other things. No living being of whatever gender can remain physically strong at all times.
==> Nope I am not talking about pregnancy , neither I am saying every gender will remain strong forever. My only point was - physical weakness of women make her easy target for rape.
If you talk about - empowering women with self protection training then also I don’t think its of much use not especially to prevent marital rape case
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 13th, 2009 at 6:51 pmEver heard of a Gun?
That is the real power. I have mentioned some males being raped and killed brutally by women.
“Don’t sell the idea of vulnerability, sensuality and male fun, it can be dangerous you know, I have a gun!”
Now that rhymes nice!
GP Says:
February 13th, 2009 at 8:32 pmwell, when u get sedatives through drinks you won’t have power to use gun . This is applicable to both men and women.
and I am NOT sellling idea of vulnerability, sensuality and male fun.
Unpretentious Diva Says:
February 14th, 2009 at 12:07 amThat is what I said GP, even men can be vulnerable if you use sedatives so you don’t need to say that women are vulnerable, both men women are equally vulnerable, every living species is vulnerable sometime or other. For all other situations as I already said
Don’t sell the idea of vulnerability, sensuality and male fun, it can be dangerous as I have got a gun!
SEXUAL HARASSMENT Says:
February 18th, 2010 at 6:55 amMost of us treat rape as entertainment. But we can’t imagine that how they feel who faced this problem. No one knows what happened backstage. Most of the peoples are not aware about sexual harassment and its very important to make them aware this will help us to decrease occurring sexual harassment in our country.