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	<title>Comments on: Help poor farmers, speculate on grain Futures!</title>
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	<description>Because everything has a reason!</description>
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		<title>By: Responding the questions of an IAS aspirant &#124; Reason for Liberty</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2408</link>
		<dc:creator>Responding the questions of an IAS aspirant &#124; Reason for Liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2009 02:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2408</guid>
		<description>[...] some lives from those poor farmers who committed suicide then try to get into commodity futures. Help Poor farmers, speculate on grain&#160;Futures. 5) What is the motive behind the kidney scams and our poachers? isn’t it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] some lives from those poor farmers who committed suicide then try to get into commodity futures. Help Poor farmers, speculate on grain&nbsp;Futures. 5) What is the motive behind the kidney scams and our poachers? isn’t it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: renegade_division</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2407</link>
		<dc:creator>renegade_division</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2407</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@Keshav Said:&lt;/strong&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;what if the predicted wheat price is very low, or the wheat rate is intentionally made low (corruption) ? neither the farmer sells it nor the buyer buys it rite…&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I am not sure how there is corruption in a free market transaction?  Corruption takes place when you entrust someone with someone else&#039;s property. For example if your hire manager to take care of your restaurant, now there can be corruption or if there is a public official involved.
Coming to the second point. If the predicted wheat price is too low, the farmer will not sell the futures contract. Remember this is not just a prediction but the farmer has to agree upon the sale and buyer has to pay farmer that money. I mean I could predict the wheat prices to be Rs 10 per kg but its not really a prediction because I am not exchanging a contract.
So there is no such thing as &quot;intentionally made low&quot;, the whole intention of a futures contract buyer is to get the least price for his contract. If wheat&#039;s usual price in Summer is Rs 20 per kg, and I am offering in Jan, the farmer a price of Rs 5 per kg, the farmer has no reason to accept that contract. But remember farmer would be taking the risk onto himself by not accepting that offer.
Of course once no farmer is willing to sell their wheat at Rs 5, the speculator has to offer a higher price.


&lt;blockquote&gt;What if there no harvest itself (due to floods or drought) ?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
If there is no harvest then Farmer will have to pay the speculator either the price of the wheat in the market or that much wheat bought from somewhere else. This may sound horrible, but remember farmer is literally farming from the money he got from the sale of futures contract. So if the futures contract holder paid him Rs 10 per kg,  and the contract was for 1000 kgs, then farmer got Rs 10,000 to grow wheat. Farmer will use Rs 7,000-8,000 from it to grow the wheat(rest is suppose to be his profit), if all the wheat goes away at the wheat prices on the day of delivery is Rs 40 per kg then farmer must pay Rs 40,000 or Rs 40,000 worth of wheat to the futures contract holder.
It may sound like a bad condition but then remember that uncertainty about the prices was taken away. If farmer cannot produce that much wheat then farmer is screwed. This screwup happens in rare conditions. Although price fluctuations happen way too much. So overall farmer is in a benefit than loss.
Now if farmer wants to reduce his loss in case of market thinking rain is going to greatly reduce the prices then Farmer can buy a futures contract any time he wants. For example if you are a Farmer and you sold Apr Futures in Jan to deliver 1000 kg of wheat at Rs 10 per kg, and now in Feb the prices have gone to Rs 30 per kg, then you can buy the contracts back to cover your position now, you re took the risks involved with price fluctuations(with a small loss). But then now you are actually involved in prediction business.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The farmer doesnt get any profit if the actual price is high. So hes getting loss in this case. (Though your idea avoid suicides, I’m thinking of the next step !).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That&#039;s correct, the farmer will not any profit if the actual price is high. But then farmer will not have any loss if the actual price is low either. If farmer wants to take the risk in his own hand he is free to do so but then he might commit suicide if he fails.
Just consider it as buying price insurance. You give up the risk of price going down too low so you give up the profit of price going high too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@Keshav Said:</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>what if the predicted wheat price is very low, or the wheat rate is intentionally made low (corruption) ? neither the farmer sells it nor the buyer buys it rite…</p></blockquote>
<p>I am not sure how there is corruption in a free market transaction?  Corruption takes place when you entrust someone with someone else&#8217;s property. For example if your hire manager to take care of your restaurant, now there can be corruption or if there is a public official involved.<br />
Coming to the second point. If the predicted wheat price is too low, the farmer will not sell the futures contract. Remember this is not just a prediction but the farmer has to agree upon the sale and buyer has to pay farmer that money. I mean I could predict the wheat prices to be Rs 10 per kg but its not really a prediction because I am not exchanging a contract.<br />
So there is no such thing as &#8220;intentionally made low&#8221;, the whole intention of a futures contract buyer is to get the least price for his contract. If wheat&#8217;s usual price in Summer is Rs 20 per kg, and I am offering in Jan, the farmer a price of Rs 5 per kg, the farmer has no reason to accept that contract. But remember farmer would be taking the risk onto himself by not accepting that offer.<br />
Of course once no farmer is willing to sell their wheat at Rs 5, the speculator has to offer a higher price.</p>
<blockquote><p>What if there no harvest itself (due to floods or drought) ?</p></blockquote>
<p>If there is no harvest then Farmer will have to pay the speculator either the price of the wheat in the market or that much wheat bought from somewhere else. This may sound horrible, but remember farmer is literally farming from the money he got from the sale of futures contract. So if the futures contract holder paid him Rs 10 per kg,  and the contract was for 1000 kgs, then farmer got Rs 10,000 to grow wheat. Farmer will use Rs 7,000-8,000 from it to grow the wheat(rest is suppose to be his profit), if all the wheat goes away at the wheat prices on the day of delivery is Rs 40 per kg then farmer must pay Rs 40,000 or Rs 40,000 worth of wheat to the futures contract holder.<br />
It may sound like a bad condition but then remember that uncertainty about the prices was taken away. If farmer cannot produce that much wheat then farmer is screwed. This screwup happens in rare conditions. Although price fluctuations happen way too much. So overall farmer is in a benefit than loss.<br />
Now if farmer wants to reduce his loss in case of market thinking rain is going to greatly reduce the prices then Farmer can buy a futures contract any time he wants. For example if you are a Farmer and you sold Apr Futures in Jan to deliver 1000 kg of wheat at Rs 10 per kg, and now in Feb the prices have gone to Rs 30 per kg, then you can buy the contracts back to cover your position now, you re took the risks involved with price fluctuations(with a small loss). But then now you are actually involved in prediction business.</p>
<blockquote><p>The farmer doesnt get any profit if the actual price is high. So hes getting loss in this case. (Though your idea avoid suicides, I’m thinking of the next step !).</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s correct, the farmer will not any profit if the actual price is high. But then farmer will not have any loss if the actual price is low either. If farmer wants to take the risk in his own hand he is free to do so but then he might commit suicide if he fails.<br />
Just consider it as buying price insurance. You give up the risk of price going down too low so you give up the profit of price going high too.</p>
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		<title>By: keshav</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2406</link>
		<dc:creator>keshav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 05:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2406</guid>
		<description>You told that the farmer has to sell at some cost which &#039;ll be predicted.
But some cases may lead to loss to farmers -
1.what if the predicted wheat price is very low, or the wheat rate is intentionally made low (corruption) ?
neither the farmer sells it nor the buyer buys it rite...
2. What if theres no harvest itself (due to floods or drought) ?
3. The farmer doesnt get any profit if the actual price is high. So hes getting loss in this case. (Though your idea avoid suicides, I&#039;m thinking of the next step !).
.-= keshav&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://keshavcharan.blogspot.com/2009/07/greatest-fraud-of-andhra-pradesh.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;THE GREATEST FRAUD OF ANDHRA PRADESH...&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You told that the farmer has to sell at some cost which &#8216;ll be predicted.<br />
But some cases may lead to loss to farmers -<br />
1.what if the predicted wheat price is very low, or the wheat rate is intentionally made low (corruption) ?<br />
neither the farmer sells it nor the buyer buys it rite&#8230;<br />
2. What if theres no harvest itself (due to floods or drought) ?<br />
3. The farmer doesnt get any profit if the actual price is high. So hes getting loss in this case. (Though your idea avoid suicides, I&#8217;m thinking of the next step !).<br />
.-= keshav&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://keshavcharan.blogspot.com/2009/07/greatest-fraud-of-andhra-pradesh.html" rel="nofollow">THE GREATEST FRAUD OF ANDHRA PRADESH&#8230;</a> =-.</p>
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		<title>By: Rolf Krake</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2405</link>
		<dc:creator>Rolf Krake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 20:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2405</guid>
		<description>The Simpsons interpreting the Fountainhead mocking public education

Wonderful to see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CEX1P8MZnI</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Simpsons interpreting the Fountainhead mocking public education</p>
<p>Wonderful to see</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CEX1P8MZnI" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CEX1P8MZnI</a></p>
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		<title>By: renegade_division</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2401</link>
		<dc:creator>renegade_division</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 06:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2401</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;GP Said:&lt;/strong&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;so how they are suppose to reap benefits of commodities futures (here I mean probable benefits as in future options you got to be prepare for losses as well) OR its just for those rich highly  educated MBA grads  farmers/commodities traders who are very well aware of  financial instruments  [:-)] ?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
See that&#039;s why I am trying to say here. You the highly educated MBA Graduate(although I fail to see which part of an MBA degree teaches you trading), is going to do the trading, take the risks of the the price fluctuations in YOUR HAND, from the Farmer.
 The farmer gets the benefit of not having the risk of price uncertainty in his hand.
Lemme elaborate.  Take for instance doing any business. When you start doing the business there are two possibilities,  you make it big, and become the next billion dollar company, or you lose it all and become bankrupt. Usually when you do good market research, you reduce your chances of becoming bankrupt. But there is still some uncertainty whether you will be able to make profit or make loss.
Wouldn&#039;t it be great if someone took that risk from your hand. That is they promise you a certain amount of price even before you start producing anything?? That will surely reduce the risk on your capital. If you are getting a good price for your product you will go ahead and start producing.

Similarly when you buy a commodity future from a farmer he is promised a specific price(determined by the demand supply for that future commodity) for a specific quantity of commodity on a future date.
&lt;strong&gt;
Benefits to the farmer:&lt;/strong&gt; He does not have to worry whether his produce will lose value on that future date of production. If you are a farmer and you start planting the seeds for wheat, you know what price you will get for this wheat by looking at the current price of that future wheat. IF you like that price you can sell that future contract right now and get that money today. Then you are contractually obliged to deliver that amount of wheat on that future date.
&lt;strong&gt;
&lt;span style=&quot;text-decoration: underline;&quot;&gt;The farmer does not have to &lt;em&gt;trade&lt;/em&gt; in futures, only sell them to take the benefit from a farmer&#039;s perspective.

&lt;/span&gt;
Benefits to the guy who can predict the wheat price:&lt;/strong&gt; This guy if he is correct will pocket the price difference, in whichever direction he thinks the price will move.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>GP Said:</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>so how they are suppose to reap benefits of commodities futures (here I mean probable benefits as in future options you got to be prepare for losses as well) OR its just for those rich highly  educated MBA grads  farmers/commodities traders who are very well aware of  financial instruments  [:-)] ?</p></blockquote>
<p>See that&#8217;s why I am trying to say here. You the highly educated MBA Graduate(although I fail to see which part of an MBA degree teaches you trading), is going to do the trading, take the risks of the the price fluctuations in YOUR HAND, from the Farmer.<br />
 The farmer gets the benefit of not having the risk of price uncertainty in his hand.<br />
Lemme elaborate.  Take for instance doing any business. When you start doing the business there are two possibilities,  you make it big, and become the next billion dollar company, or you lose it all and become bankrupt. Usually when you do good market research, you reduce your chances of becoming bankrupt. But there is still some uncertainty whether you will be able to make profit or make loss.<br />
Wouldn&#8217;t it be great if someone took that risk from your hand. That is they promise you a certain amount of price even before you start producing anything?? That will surely reduce the risk on your capital. If you are getting a good price for your product you will go ahead and start producing.</p>
<p>Similarly when you buy a commodity future from a farmer he is promised a specific price(determined by the demand supply for that future commodity) for a specific quantity of commodity on a future date.<br />
<strong><br />
Benefits to the farmer:</strong> He does not have to worry whether his produce will lose value on that future date of production. If you are a farmer and you start planting the seeds for wheat, you know what price you will get for this wheat by looking at the current price of that future wheat. IF you like that price you can sell that future contract right now and get that money today. Then you are contractually obliged to deliver that amount of wheat on that future date.<br />
<strong><br />
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">The farmer does not have to <em>trade</em> in futures, only sell them to take the benefit from a farmer&#8217;s perspective.</p>
<p></span><br />
Benefits to the guy who can predict the wheat price:</strong> This guy if he is correct will pocket the price difference, in whichever direction he thinks the price will move.</p>
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		<title>By: GP</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2402</link>
		<dc:creator>GP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 03:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2402</guid>
		<description>hmm..so how they are suppose to reap benefits of commodities futures? ( here I mean probable benefits as in future options you got to be prepare for losses as well)....OR its just for those rich highly  educated MBA grads  farmers/commodities traders who are very well aware of  financial instruments  [:-)] ?
I think bottomline of your article is --  &quot;commodities futures&quot; as solution to the issue you elaborated at the beginning of article .  But what about &quot;For whoem&quot; and &quot;How&quot;   part of the issue? ....

One more thing - I guess you should also read/recommend  - “Fooled by Randomess ” to the readers  - By Taleb.  ..good one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hmm..so how they are suppose to reap benefits of commodities futures? ( here I mean probable benefits as in future options you got to be prepare for losses as well)&#8230;.OR its just for those rich highly  educated MBA grads  farmers/commodities traders who are very well aware of  financial instruments  [:-)] ?<br />
I think bottomline of your article is &#8211;  &#8220;commodities futures&#8221; as solution to the issue you elaborated at the beginning of article .  But what about &#8220;For whoem&#8221; and &#8220;How&#8221;   part of the issue? &#8230;.</p>
<p>One more thing &#8211; I guess you should also read/recommend  &#8211; “Fooled by Randomess ” to the readers  &#8211; By Taleb.  ..good one!</p>
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		<title>By: renegade_division</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2404</link>
		<dc:creator>renegade_division</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 04:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2404</guid>
		<description>They don&#039;t have to enter the commodity futures market. You totally missed the point of the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They don&#8217;t have to enter the commodity futures market. You totally missed the point of the article.</p>
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		<title>By: GP</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2403</link>
		<dc:creator>GP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 03:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.reasonforliberty.com/?p=3434#comment-2403</guid>
		<description>Nice article ! I guess you should also write article on -
&quot;What are the best ways to educate poor farmers about commodities market and commodities futures and how
they can be convinced to enter into it !&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article ! I guess you should also write article on -<br />
&#8220;What are the best ways to educate poor farmers about commodities market and commodities futures and how<br />
they can be convinced to enter into it !&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Reality</title>
		<link>http://www.reasonforliberty.com/anarcho-capitalism/help-poor-farmers-speculate-on-grain.html#comment-2400</link>
		<dc:creator>Reality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 12:41:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>We have to face the facts.  Our agricultural policy is that of Earl Butts, Richard Nixon&#039;s Secretary of Agriculture and a deeply pocketed in agri-business.  He remade our farming system to favor large corporate farms over small family farms.  This policy was extended by Ronald Reagan to the extent that small family farmers became alkost extinct in the 1980s.  Butz&#039;s corporate farming model is not longer sustainable, since it requires too much energy.  We must get back to small, efficiently run farms that produce the food needed by people living in that region and employ techniques that are much less dependant on petro-chemicals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have to face the facts.  Our agricultural policy is that of Earl Butts, Richard Nixon&#8217;s Secretary of Agriculture and a deeply pocketed in agri-business.  He remade our farming system to favor large corporate farms over small family farms.  This policy was extended by Ronald Reagan to the extent that small family farmers became alkost extinct in the 1980s.  Butz&#8217;s corporate farming model is not longer sustainable, since it requires too much energy.  We must get back to small, efficiently run farms that produce the food needed by people living in that region and employ techniques that are much less dependant on petro-chemicals.</p>
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